Another JPL question (JPL5, JPL7 and so on...)
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: June 19, 2013
Posts: 113
Submissions: 8
Location: Rotterdam

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2019 5:42 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

JPL9 Skip3

This is JPL9 Skip4, the ropage variant is always the middle two, 4 and 5 here. The AR is probably a bit too high in the image.





Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
Submissions: 18

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:22 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I have a hard time starting the JPL 5 skip 2. I can see How I Would continue, but I can’t get it to start. Any tips?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: June 19, 2013
Posts: 113
Submissions: 8
Location: Rotterdam

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:16 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

You start with a 5 möbius and then you add rings going through the last 4 and flip the chain around.

There's a link to a tutorial on the previous page. Once you understand the weave you can it do it the other way as well.

You can make it easier if you start with a piece of plastic canvas and/or rings with a slightly lower AR.



Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
Submissions: 18

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 12:21 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

JanPieter wrote:
You start with a 5 möbius and then you add rings going through the last 4 and flip the chain around.

There's a link to a tutorial on the previous page. Once you understand the weave you can it do it the other way as well.

You can make it easier if you start with a piece of plastic canvas and/or rings with a slightly lower AR.


How’d I miss the link?

Using 4.5 AR rings, This was super easy and gorgeous, and made me understand the submission talking about degrees.

I get confused about the naming scheme, I Don’t see What it’d derived from, even If I see the math pattern.

This means that JPL7s1 and JPL7s3 are the easy ones then?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: June 19, 2013
Posts: 113
Submissions: 8
Location: Rotterdam

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:26 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

The skip naming scheme came from Zlosk's image, I just went with it.

JPL7 has 6 versions, JPL7s1 and JPL7s6 are the standard ones, JPL7s2 and JPL7s5 are the Alternate ones, and JPL7s3 and JPL7s4 are the Ropage ones.



Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
Submissions: 18

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:19 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

JanPieter wrote:
The skip naming scheme came from Zlosk's image, I just went with it.

JPL7 has 6 versions, JPL7s1 and JPL7s6 are the standard ones, JPL7s2 and JPL7s5 are the Alternate ones, and JPL7s3 and JPL7s4 are the Ropage ones.


Isn’t JPL7s1/6 the same with different chirality?

I see that i comes from There, but I Don’t understand Why it’s ”skip”.

But JPL 7s1 is made just like 5s1, and 7s3 like 5s2, If I understand you correctly?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3119
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:25 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

JanPieter wrote:
The skip naming scheme came from Zlosk's image, I just went with it.

JPL7 has 6 versions, JPL7s1 and JPL7s6 are the standard ones, JPL7s2 and JPL7s5 are the Alternate ones, and JPL7s3 and JPL7s4 are the Ropage ones.


Sounds similar to the Half Persian possibilities to me...
Perhaps CMB can chime in? After I started him down that path, I recall he did a lot more in depth digging into Half Persian alternates.

We should probably come up with some form of standard nomenclature for these.



Joined: March 26, 2002
Posts: 1942
Submissions: 578
Location: Chainmailland, Chainmailia

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 3:39 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Sounds similar to the Half Persian possibilities to me...
Perhaps CMB can chime in?


Alas, JPL is one thing I haven’t spent time studying, and it still appears intimidating to me, at best. So far, I’ve only made the standard Jens Pind Linkage, and the And A Half Half Persians, which are said to be “Jens Pind Linkage 3x1.5”, and “Jens Pind Linkage 3x2”, but I haven’t taken the time to figure out how and why this is. I hope to get around to this some day.


There is no such thing as weave ownership. If someone produces a weave sample, they own that physical piece of mail, but not rights to the weave pattern itself.
Chainmailbasket.com (2019-01-01) - 376 + 79

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
Submissions: 18

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:17 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
Sounds similar to the Half Persian possibilities to me...
Perhaps CMB can chime in?


Alas, JPL is one thing I haven’t spent time studying, and it still appears intimidating to me, at best. So far, I’ve only made the standard Jens Pind Linkage, and the And A Half Half Persians, which are said to be “Jens Pind Linkage 3x1.5”, and “Jens Pind Linkage 3x2”, but I haven’t taken the time to figure out how and why this is. I hope to get around to this some day.


One thing that bothers me is the following quote from jpl 5x2 (which I instinctively would say is more of a JPL7 variant) ” Unlike normal JPL it is locked and will not fall apart with looser ARs.”

JPL5s1/2 Both fall apart at higher AR. Isn’t that part of a Definitely feature.

Which makes me wonder Why jpl9s3 is suppousedly HP3x3-1?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: February 15, 2002
Posts: 397
Submissions: 10

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:50 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Karpeth wrote:
JanPieter wrote:
The skip naming scheme came from Zlosk's image, I just went with it.

JPL7 has 6 versions, JPL7s1 and JPL7s6 are the standard ones, JPL7s2 and JPL7s5 are the Alternate ones, and JPL7s3 and JPL7s4 are the Ropage ones.


Isn’t JPL7s1/6 the same with different chirality?

I see that i comes from There, but I Don’t understand Why it’s ”skip”.


You are correct, JPL7s1/6 is the same with opposite chirality. The "skip" term came from how I programmed the 3D model. For a basic JPLn, each ring added to the chain is rotated 360/n degrees. For a skip m variant, each ring added to the chain is rotated (m+1)*360/n degrees. Any multiple of 360 degrees can be added to or subtracted from a position, and it is effectively the same position.

Since it will save some writing and calculations to use JPL5 instead of JPL7, I'll use JPL5 as an example. The same rules will apply for JPL7 (or higher variants).

JPL5 (each progressive ring rotates 72 degrees, equivalent to rotating -288 degrees)
Ring 1: 0 degrees (same position as -360 degrees)
Ring 2 72 degrees (same position as -288 degrees)
Ring 3: 144 degrees (same position as-216 degrees)
Ring 4: 216 degrees (same position as -144 degrees)
Ring 5: 288 degrees (same position as -72 degrees)
Ring 6: 360 degrees (same position as 0 degrees)

JPL5 Skip 1 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 72 degrees for a total of 144 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating -216 degrees)
Ring 1 (same as JPL5 Ring 1): 0 degrees
Ring 2 (same as JPL5 Ring 3): 144 degrees (same position as -216 degrees)
Ring 3 (same as JPL5 Ring 5): 288 degrees(same position as -72 degrees)
Ring 4 (same as JPL5 Ring 7): 432 degrees (same position as 72 degrees)
Ring 5 (same as JPL5 Ring 9): 576 degrees (same position as 216 degrees)
Ring 6 (same as JPL5 Ring 11): 720 degrees (same position as 0)

JPL5 Skip 2 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 144 degrees, for a total of 216 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating -144 degrees)
Ring 1 (same as JPL5 Ring 1): 0 degrees
Ring 2 (same as JPL5 Ring 4): 216 degrees (same position as -144 degrees)
Ring 3 (same as JPL5 Ring 7): 432 degrees(same position as 72 degrees)
Ring 4 (same as JPL5 Ring 10): 648 degrees (same position as -72 degrees)
Ring 5 (same as JPL5 Ring 13): 864 degrees (same position as -216 degrees)
Ring 6 (same as JPL5 Ring 16): 1080 degrees (same position as 0)

If you compare the "same position as" text, you will note that the Skip 1 positions are equal to the negative of the Skip 2 positions, which means that the two will be mirrors of each other, and will have the opposite chirality.

JPL5 Skip 4 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 216 degrees, for a total of 288 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating -72 degrees)
Since this is equivalent to each progressive ring rotating -72 degrees, this is the mirror/opposite chirality of standard JPL5.

JPL5 Skip 5 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 360 degrees, for a total of 432 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating 72 degrees)
...and we are back where we started.

Hope this all makes sense. If not, ask more questions.


IGP (Irregular Grid Painter) Links:
Home | FAQ | Downloads

Joined: June 19, 2013
Posts: 113
Submissions: 8
Location: Rotterdam

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:24 pm || Last edited by JanPieter on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
Link to Post: Link to Post

Karpeth wrote:
JanPieter wrote:
The skip naming scheme came from Zlosk's image, I just went with it.

JPL7 has 6 versions, JPL7s1 and JPL7s6 are the standard ones, JPL7s2 and JPL7s5 are the Alternate ones, and JPL7s3 and JPL7s4 are the Ropage ones.


Isn’t JPL7s1/6 the same with different chirality?

I see that i comes from There, but I Don’t understand Why it’s ”skip”.

But JPL 7s1 is made just like 5s1, and 7s3 like 5s2, If I understand you correctly?


Yes, the chirality pairs could be clearly seen in Zlosk's image but it's not there anymore unfortunately.

I think the skip may be the rotation 360/x with x coming from JPLx. It doesn't refer to rings skipped.

JPL7s1 and JPL5s1 are made in a similar manner, same with 7s3 and 5s2.

Edit:
I started replying before Zlosk's post Wink



Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
Submissions: 18

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:25 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Zlosk wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
JanPieter wrote:
The skip naming scheme came from Zlosk's image, I just went with it.

JPL7 has 6 versions, JPL7s1 and JPL7s6 are the standard ones, JPL7s2 and JPL7s5 are the Alternate ones, and JPL7s3 and JPL7s4 are the Ropage ones.


Isn’t JPL7s1/6 the same with different chirality?

I see that i comes from There, but I Don’t understand Why it’s ”skip”.


You are correct, JPL7s1/6 is the same with opposite chirality. The "skip" term came from how I programmed the 3D model. For a basic JPLn, each ring added to the chain is rotated 360/n degrees. For a skip m variant, each ring added to the chain is rotated (m+1)*360/n degrees. Any multiple of 360 degrees can be added to or subtracted from a position, and it is effectively the same position.

Since it will save some writing and calculations to use JPL5 instead of JPL7, I'll use JPL5 as an example. The same rules will apply for JPL7 (or higher variants).

JPL5 (each progressive ring rotates 72 degrees, equivalent to rotating -288 degrees)
Ring 1: 0 degrees (same position as -360 degrees)
Ring 2 72 degrees (same position as -288 degrees)
Ring 3: 144 degrees (same position as-216 degrees)
Ring 4: 216 degrees (same position as -144 degrees)
Ring 5: 288 degrees (same position as -72 degrees)
Ring 6: 360 degrees (same position as 0 degrees)

JPL5 Skip 1 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 72 degrees for a total of 144 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating -216 degrees)
Ring 1 (same as JPL5 Ring 1): 0 degrees
Ring 2 (same as JPL5 Ring 3): 144 degrees (same position as -216 degrees)
Ring 3 (same as JPL5 Ring 5): 288 degrees(same position as -72 degrees)
Ring 4 (same as JPL5 Ring 7): 432 degrees (same position as 72 degrees)
Ring 5 (same as JPL5 Ring 9): 576 degrees (same position as 216 degrees)
Ring 6 (same as JPL5 Ring 11): 720 degrees (same position as 0)

JPL5 Skip 2 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 144 degrees, for a total of 216 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating -144 degrees)
Ring 1 (same as JPL5 Ring 1): 0 degrees
Ring 2 (same as JPL5 Ring 4): 216 degrees (same position as -144 degrees)
Ring 3 (same as JPL5 Ring 7): 432 degrees(same position as 72 degrees)
Ring 4 (same as JPL5 Ring 10): 648 degrees (same position as -72 degrees)
Ring 5 (same as JPL5 Ring 13): 864 degrees (same position as -216 degrees)
Ring 6 (same as JPL5 Ring 16): 1080 degrees (same position as 0)

If you compare the "same position as" text, you will note that the Skip 1 positions are equal to the negative of the Skip 2 positions, which means that the two will be mirrors of each other, and will have the opposite chirality.

JPL5 Skip 4 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 216 degrees, for a total of 288 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating -72 degrees)
Since this is equivalent to each progressive ring rotating -72 degrees, this is the mirror/opposite chirality of standard JPL5.

JPL5 Skip 5 (each progressive ring rotates an additional 360 degrees, for a total of 432 degrees, which is equivalent to rotating 72 degrees)
...and we are back where we started.

Hope this all makes sense. If not, ask more questions.


It Kind of does, but JPLs0/5 confuse me; are There 3 JPL5? We only have Two in the library?

Applying the math you presented;

JPL3
Ring 1: 0 degrees (same position as -360 degrees)
Ring 2 120 degrees (same position as -240degrees)
Ring 3: 240 degrees (same position as-120 degrees)
Ring 4: 360 degrees (same position as 0 degrees)

Would JPL3s1 make sense, as in
0
240
480
720?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: June 19, 2013
Posts: 113
Submissions: 8
Location: Rotterdam

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:43 pm || Last edited by JanPieter on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:51 pm; edited 1 time in total
Link to Post: Link to Post

For JPL3 when you take steps of 240 degrees it's the same as taking steps of 120 in the opposite direction.

There are only two JPL5s.



Joined: March 26, 2002
Posts: 1942
Submissions: 578
Location: Chainmailland, Chainmailia

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 5:50 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I sincerely hope that this discussion results in one or more articles on the subject. Smile


There is no such thing as weave ownership. If someone produces a weave sample, they own that physical piece of mail, but not rights to the weave pattern itself.
Chainmailbasket.com (2019-01-01) - 376 + 79

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 734
Submissions: 18

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Nov 23, 2019 6:03 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

JanPieter wrote:
For JPL3 when you take steps of 240 degrees it's the same as taking steps of 120 in the opposite direction.

There are only two JPL5s.


That’s What I thought as well, but zlosk has presented math to confuse me.

Is jpl5s0/5 (and perhaps jpl3s0/3) to be viewed as the same as spiral 8-1 and 4-1 respectivly?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 8 of 10. Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Sat Dec 07, 2019 9:42 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
Display posts from previous: