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Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
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Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 11:37 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
mithrilweaver wrote:
that's so interesting. mind blown. i thought everyone would feel disrespected by a situation like this. it's not about "i" or ownership of a weave. for me, it's about first come first serve respect. to me, it's like cutting in line. i was first and someone cut me in line and put the weave in. i'm happy either way that the weave is in, but i'm upset that i was cut in line and disrespected. does that make sense? and i know the person didn't know they were cutting me in line, but once it's found out, the situation should be fixed. there should be some remedy or fix. and it's simple enough to reject the second submitter and accept the first. i just don't understand why that's not an option. i don't understand the admin standing by and doing nothing to fix it.


Because it’s not an “accept the first submitter” situation.

The (your) original submission was declined. The weave admin decided (for whatever reason) that it did not fit the criteria. It was moved to the Gallery.
It wasn’t “not accepted yet”... It was actively declined.

Another submission was made by another user, perhaps with a different description or image, or upon review by a new weave admin, the weave was decided valid. Thus the only existing submission at the time was accepted.

This is NOT the same as “Two submissions, but mine was first.”

Am I missing something here?


While i disagree with narinna on the topic of ”stability issues”, the mage weaves are charecterised By thinner, smaller rings. While I agree that your original submission should have been accepted, it was declined.

This submission approaches the weave with mage ”Googles”. With those eyes, it’s a clear cut case that it should be accepted. And since you brought UP your submission, it’s been noted that you discovered it.

I believe we should carry on, and let This be.

While we need a new admin &// a council, we evolve the craft by working together, not bickering over discovery credit.


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:52 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
And we’re doing plenty.

We’re actively discussing how to handle a situation.
I’m sorry it’s not going exactly how you expected.

That is not the same as “standing by and doing nothing to fix it”... Not even remotely.


well, from my point of view, nothing is being done and and i'm sure nothing will be done as usual. trust me, this is going exactly how i expected.



Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

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Posted on Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:59 am
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Quote:
While i disagree with narinna on the topic of ”stability issues”, the mage weaves are charecterised By thinner, smaller rings. While I agree that your original submission should have been accepted, it was declined.

This submission approaches the weave with mage ”Googles”. With those eyes, it’s a clear cut case that it should be accepted. And since you brought UP your submission, it’s been noted that you discovered it.

I believe we should carry on, and let This be.

While we need a new admin &// a council, we evolve the craft by working together, not bickering over discovery credit.


i don't know how to me more clear - i don't care about who gets credit for the weaves. i don't care about ownership or intellectual property. all i care about is treating chainmaillers with respect so they keep coming back and wanting to be a part of this site. maybe some of you don't mind if this happens to you, but some people do, and it's not completely crazy to think so.



Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3107
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

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Posted on Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:00 am
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So it’s basically “this is my line in the sand, I don’t want to discuss this, I want this to be handled exactly the way I described, or I will tell you that you’re doing nothing”??

Or am I misreading?

You appear to have no desire to have an actual dialog surrounding this, and have now resorted to vague “as usual” disparagement.

You completely ignored my analysis and explanation of the situation, which tells me that you either don’t care for an opinion that differs from your own. Or you disagree, but don’t consider me worth bothering to explain your differing opinion to.
Again, outright refusal to have a discussion, instead pointing to your line in the sand.

If you want to see change. Be a part of change.
If you want to yell... Go ahead and yell.

But I have no interest in being yelled at. So please, for the love of all things, open a damn discussion. Have a conversation. Put your money where your mouth is and help “build a better MAIL”...



Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

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Posted on Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:00 am
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
So it’s basically “this is my line in the sand, I don’t want to discuss this, I want this to be handled exactly the way I described, or I will tell you that you’re doing nothing”??

Or am I misreading?

You appear to have no desire to have an actual dialog surrounding this, and have now resorted to vague “as usual” disparagement.

You completely ignored my analysis and explanation of the situation, which tells me that you either don’t care for an opinion that differs from your own. Or you disagree, but don’t consider me worth bothering to explain your differing opinion to.
Again, outright refusal to have a discussion, instead pointing to your line in the sand.

If you want to see change. Be a part of change.
If you want to yell... Go ahead and yell.

But I have no interest in being yelled at. So please, for the love of all things, open a damn discussion. Have a conversation. Put your money where your mouth is and help “build a better MAIL”...


laughable. i have no line in the sand. a line in the sand requires power. what power do i have? i'm here. i've listened to your arguments. i have nothing to say regarding your explanations because they don't matter. i mean i get it. i see why it got to this point, but who cares? it doesn't matter how you got to this point where you alienate chainmaillers. it only matters what you do now. you are unwilling to hear or empathize from a members point of view. i've shown you how i was wronged and all you can give me is explanations. you won't fix it or vote on it. we've all sat here and talked the situation to death. but it's all up to you. it's your world and we are just living in it. if you don't want to vote, there's no vote and life goes on.



Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

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Posted on Wed Oct 23, 2019 8:08 am
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i've tried so many times to help and you just ignore me. at least 3 times i asked to be an admin and you ignored me. i bring up issues that need addressed often and they get talked about and that's it. nothing is done. i've pored tons of information into this site and been a part of countless discussions, but somehow i'm doing nothing to help mail...?



Joined: March 26, 2002
Posts: 1933
Submissions: 576
Location: Chainmailland, Chainmailia

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Posted on Wed Oct 23, 2019 9:57 am
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mithrilweaver: you keep saying vote, do something, vote, but we have nothing to vote on. At least not yet.

What exactly are we supposed to be voting for at this point?


Chainmailbasket.com (2019-01-01) - 376 + 79

Joined: October 22, 2010
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Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

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Posted on Thu Oct 24, 2019 8:42 am
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2 things.

i would like a vote on how to handle these situations where 1 weave was denied for 1 person and then the same weave was accepted for another person. the vote would be on whether to deny the first submitter or the second submitter.

the other issue that was called to vote was the weave admin/council. i think it has been suggested that 1 or 3 weave admin could work. so, first vote on 1 or 3, then vote on who or whom that will be.

these should be open to all members.



Joined: March 25, 2002
Posts: 86
Submissions: 30
Location: Selden, NY

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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 12:43 pm
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((dusts off his old account to actually reply rather than lurking))

Seems to me the problem isn't just one of attribution, it's one of naming rights, among other things. If somebody discovers and documents a weave, even outside of M.A.I.L., that grants them some level of control and copyright, no?

Mithril clearly has documentation that he discovered and named this weave. If someone else is submitting it and claiming a different name, it feels like that second claim should be overruled by the prior art, if the original artist shows up within a reasonable time period to defend their copyright-equivalent. The fact that he submitted the weave here first seems to add additional evidence to his claim of intellectual property rights.

Bare minimum, the original name for the weave should be restored. Mithril discovered it, named it, documented it, attempted to document it here as well. I don't think anyone can dispute that. It's HIS weave, and he retains distribution right over the pattern.

What he's essentially saying is that. It's his weave, please attribute it and name/document it as appropriate.

If there's a vote, it should be "what is the appropriate time frame for an originator to state a claim and replace a new submission?"

Lord knows that if I happened to invent something on my Twitch stream with a few dozen people watching, I'd be pretty pissed if one of them raced to submit it here with a different name before I had a night's sleep and time to do a formal submission myself.

Please protect the original artist.

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
Submissions: 14

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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 7:19 pm
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Cinnibar wrote:
((dusts off his old account to actually reply rather than lurking))

Seems to me the problem isn't just one of attribution, it's one of naming rights, among other things. If somebody discovers and documents a weave, even outside of M.A.I.L., that grants them some level of control and copyright, no?

Mithril clearly has documentation that he discovered and named this weave. If someone else is submitting it and claiming a different name, it feels like that second claim should be overruled by the prior art, if the original artist shows up within a reasonable time period to defend their copyright-equivalent. The fact that he submitted the weave here first seems to add additional evidence to his claim of intellectual property rights.

Bare minimum, the original name for the weave should be restored. Mithril discovered it, named it, documented it, attempted to document it here as well. I don't think anyone can dispute that. It's HIS weave, and he retains distribution right over the pattern.

What he's essentially saying is that. It's his weave, please attribute it and name/document it as appropriate.

If there's a vote, it should be "what is the appropriate time frame for an originator to state a claim and replace a new submission?"

Lord knows that if I happened to invent something on my Twitch stream with a few dozen people watching, I'd be pretty pissed if one of them raced to submit it here with a different name before I had a night's sleep and time to do a formal submission myself.

Please protect the original artist.


What you are describing is not the same situation. This new submission is independently discovered, and Maille weaves are not inherently copyrightable.

The images, tutorials, designs, etc, That’s another thing.

I’d argue it’d a dangerous precedent to give too much Credit for submission. I’d rather see that we rework submission guidelines and licenses, to reflect a the collaborative and derivate way maille develops.


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: March 10, 2015
Posts: 39
Submissions: 6

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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:31 pm
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Cinnibar wrote:
Lord knows that if I happened to invent something on my Twitch stream with a few dozen people watching, I'd be pretty pissed if one of them raced to submit it here with a different name before I had a night's sleep and time to do a formal submission myself.


Maybe it was something they'd been working on for a while, and watching you independently discover it was the impetus for them to document and submit it, because they were afraid *you* would get credit for *their* work.


"First" is slippery. Does physically making a weave matter more than merely imagining or sketching it? Does cgmaille count as sketching it or making it? Is documenting what matters most?

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 9:43 pm
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EricN wrote:
Cinnibar wrote:
Lord knows that if I happened to invent something on my Twitch stream with a few dozen people watching, I'd be pretty pissed if one of them raced to submit it here with a different name before I had a night's sleep and time to do a formal submission myself.


Maybe it was something they'd been working on for a while, and watching you independently discover it was the impetus for them to document and submit it, because they were afraid *you* would get credit for *their* work.


"First" is slippery. Does physically making a weave matter more than merely imagining or sketching it? Does cgmaille count as sketching it or making it? Is documenting what matters most?


Is saying ”This should be possible” worth Credit?


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: March 25, 2002
Posts: 86
Submissions: 30
Location: Selden, NY

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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:06 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
EricN wrote:
Cinnibar wrote:
Lord knows that if I happened to invent something on my Twitch stream with a few dozen people watching, I'd be pretty pissed if one of them raced to submit it here with a different name before I had a night's sleep and time to do a formal submission myself.


Maybe it was something they'd been working on for a while, and watching you independently discover it was the impetus for them to document and submit it, because they were afraid *you* would get credit for *their* work.


"First" is slippery. Does physically making a weave matter more than merely imagining or sketching it? Does cgmaille count as sketching it or making it? Is documenting what matters most?


Is saying ”This should be possible” worth Credit?


In science, YES. Species and comets aren't copyrightable, but the naming of these things is typically granted to the person that discovers them, if it is documented and provable that they have the first documentation.

Here we have a weave that was discovered and documented years ago, I don't hear that part argued over, and the person who discovered it earned the right to name it at the barest minimum.

It is one of the few things weave "creators" earn through their hard work, and having the entry on M.A.I.L. Is the defacto credit some weave hunters seek.

Ar least change the name for it in the database to reflect it.

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
Submissions: 14

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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:11 pm
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Cinnibar wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
EricN wrote:
Cinnibar wrote:
Lord knows that if I happened to invent something on my Twitch stream with a few dozen people watching, I'd be pretty pissed if one of them raced to submit it here with a different name before I had a night's sleep and time to do a formal submission myself.


Maybe it was something they'd been working on for a while, and watching you independently discover it was the impetus for them to document and submit it, because they were afraid *you* would get credit for *their* work.


"First" is slippery. Does physically making a weave matter more than merely imagining or sketching it? Does cgmaille count as sketching it or making it? Is documenting what matters most?


Is saying ”This should be possible” worth Credit?


In science, YES. Species and comets aren't copyrightable, but the naming of these things is typically granted to the person that discovers them, if it is documented and provable that they have the first documentation.

Here we have a weave that was discovered and documented years ago, I don't hear that part argued over, and the person who discovered it earned the right to name it at the barest minimum.

It is one of the few things weave "creators" earn through their hard work, and having the entry on M.A.I.L. Is the defacto credit some weave hunters seek.

Ar least change the name for it in the database to reflect it.


He is credited in the text, but I can give you that the name should at least aknowledge MW.


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: March 10, 2015
Posts: 39
Submissions: 6

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Posted on Fri Oct 25, 2019 10:35 pm
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Cinnibar wrote:
It is one of the few things weave "creators" earn through their hard work, and having the entry on M.A.I.L. Is the defacto credit some weave hunters seek.


Is this a good thing? The database has, in my opinion, too many nonsensically unhelpful names, and the forums have, in my opinion, too many toxic fights over naming rights.

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