Magus Variant
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
   
Author Message

Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:52 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Karpeth wrote:
Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
I’ll explain the approval process I used to shed more light on the situation.

I’m in and out of the queue often. I notice and acknowledge what is in there, including items I don’t understand, or wouldn’t bother with*.

I decided earlier this month, completely regardless of what was in the weave queue, that I would try out some Mage weaves. I see Magus Chain in the library and find it to be a good starting point, due to its simplicity, planning to try out Magemaille next. When I started stitching together Magus Chain, my immediate thought was, “why don’t the pairs of rings connect 2 4-ring Magus units together? Why are there two sets of dividers?” At this moment, -I- independently discovered what is now called Magus Variant. I remembered that it is the same as what was in the queue. I checked and rechecked the library thinking this had to be in there somewhere, but no, so I approved it. The closest thing in the library was a version with an added ring going through each set of four: Nereid Lock Chain. It never occurred to me that this version without those added rings would have been declined if it were submitted; I found it to be -more- stable than the Nereid Lock version. Mind you, in hindsight, this could be because of the ring sizes I chose.

This chain is basic beyond basic. I’m sure it’s been independently discovered hundreds of times. It can’t not have been. I know that is besides the point, but it’s just my view.

*bother with:
I know this can be read as having a bad attitude, but it’s not meant that way. I only have so much hands, so much eyesight, and so much wantingness to weave. I do and will pick and choose, and some things are too messy, convoluted, or just not interesting to me. This is not a reflection of quality, only my view.

Also important of me to mention is:
I’m not the weaves admin

I don’t want to be the weaves admin even, but am not against the idea of being on a committee. I certainly like being able to see the queue, and leaving comments to help out others. I (reluctantly) started to help clear the weave queue after Narrina retired because I knew I could at least deal with the simpler items until we find a solution.

One of the bottom lines is that MAIL needs to get a weave admin/committee. But it also seems that MAIL needs to establish policies too. We still haven’t even come to an agreement over what a weave is.


Regarding the last paragraph, Would the BOD give a call to action?


yes, call to action please!



Joined: March 26, 2002
Posts: 1933
Submissions: 576
Location: Chainmailland, Chainmailia

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2019 7:57 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
There’s something to the tune of 10,000+ declined weaves over the years.


When I first read this I thought there’s no way it’s that high. There aren’t even 10,000 gallery images. I figured most of the declines were shifted into the gallery. I was thinking it was more like 2000, which I could deal with, as long as the majority of them were still accessible- I.e. in the gallery.

All that lost information makes me sad.

What it also does is make weave adminning literally impossible if there was the constraint that something previously declined was not allowed to be approved.

I retract my previous statement. MAIL doesn’t need a weave admin, because this function is obsolete now.


Chainmailbasket.com (2019-01-01) - 376 + 79

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
Submissions: 14

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Oct 19, 2019 8:59 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
There’s something to the tune of 10,000+ declined weaves over the years.


When I first read this I thought there’s no way it’s that high. There aren’t even 10,000 gallery images. I figured most of the declines were shifted into the gallery. I was thinking it was more like 2000, which I could deal with, as long as the majority of them were still accessible- I.e. in the gallery.

All that lost information makes me sad.

What it also does is make weave adminning literally impossible if there was the constraint that something previously declined was not allowed to be approved.

I retract my previous statement. MAIL doesn’t need a weave admin, because this function is obsolete now.


Hurm. I disagree. MAIL needs a weave admin, or MAIL is obsolete.

Or at the very least, a weave Council.


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3107
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2019 12:01 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
There’s something to the tune of 10,000+ declined weaves over the years.


When I first read this I thought there’s no way it’s that high. There aren’t even 10,000 gallery images. I figured most of the declines were shifted into the gallery. I was thinking it was more like 2000, which I could deal with, as long as the majority of them were still accessible- I.e. in the gallery.

All that lost information makes me sad.

What it also does is make weave adminning literally impossible if there was the constraint that something previously declined was not allowed to be approved.

I retract my previous statement. MAIL doesn’t need a weave admin, because this function is obsolete now.


The declines have been shifted to the gallery queue if they were thus selected by the weave admin since 3.0 only.

Prior to this, they were literally deleted due to Woody’s original code. Which I only have “weave id” to go on, indicative of the number of weaves. As it incremented by one with each submission, whether approved or not. Declined submissions were scrubbed from the database.
That number prior to the swap to 3.0 was at 79,174.
The original weave database table itself has 10,495 rows in it.
I wasn’t exaggerating. If anything, I lowballed.

This is one reason why I implemented “decline and send to Gallery”

This is also why “new submissions” of previously declined weaves have been accepted by differing weave admins, with an “Editors Note” added, in situations where there was an existing submission, etc.

Part of the massive problem dealing with this entire conversation is the differing notions between “Weave Creator” and “Weave Submitter”
Which is two completely polarized views on what MAIL records.
We record submitter, and sometimes SOMETIMES if known, an indication of “Original Creator” is included in the description.
MAIL *is not* the authority on “Who created this weave” and never has been. And never will be. It cannot. Simply due to the nature of chainmail patterns.

Once you stop viewing the database with those eyes, and instead view it as a collaborative dictionary or encyclopedia of mails weaves. This entire situation resolved itself smoothly. Imho.

But again, I’ve merely suggested how I believe things should be handled.

Karpeth wrote:
Chainmailbasket_com wrote:
Daemon_Lotos wrote:
There’s something to the tune of 10,000+ declined weaves over the years.


When I first read this I thought there’s no way it’s that high. There aren’t even 10,000 gallery images. I figured most of the declines were shifted into the gallery. I was thinking it was more like 2000, which I could deal with, as long as the majority of them were still accessible- I.e. in the gallery.

All that lost information makes me sad.

What it also does is make weave adminning literally impossible if there was the constraint that something previously declined was not allowed to be approved.

I retract my previous statement. MAIL doesn’t need a weave admin, because this function is obsolete now.


Hurm. I disagree. MAIL needs a weave admin, or MAIL is obsolete.

Or at the very least, a weave Council.


This was my suggestion as well.



Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2019 7:02 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

yep weave council please.

the issue with the submitter vs creator thing is that the policies on mail makes the user think and feel like each member is a creator when they submit a weave. 1) their member name goes on the weave page. whenever a person's name is on something, they think they own it. 2) "my" mail under the user panel. this indicates that all the weaves and articles and gallery images listed there are "mine." 3) the policy of no one can change the weave name or picture except the original submitter. this gives the submitter a lot of power. power that usually only a creator would have. 4) it's incredibly hard to create something original. because it's so hard to get a weave approved here, this creates a huge excitement when a weave does get approved. it makes the weave special, something this person put a lot of work into. this experience of personal hard work is the foundation of ownership mentality. 5) this is the largest database of chainmaille weaves in existence. that make this site the authority on weaves. people, like me, come here to look for who made what to give them credit. we don't want to publish our work in the world without giving credit to the people that put in work before us. and this is the only place that gives semi reliable information about that. 6) the date submitted. this tells the user when the weave was submitted. so, when there is any issue on who "created" something first, everyone looks here to see WHEN it was submitted to solve the issue.

you may want people to have a more "weave submitter" mindset, but this site encourages "weave ownership" mindset.



Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3107
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:07 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

mithrilweaver wrote:
yep weave council please.

the issue with the submitter vs creator thing is that the policies on mail makes the user think and feel like each member is a creator when they submit a weave. 1) their member name goes on the weave page. whenever a person's name is on something, they think they own it. 2) "my" mail under the user panel. this indicates that all the weaves and articles and gallery images listed there are "mine." 3) the policy of no one can change the weave name or picture except the original submitter. this gives the submitter a lot of power. power that usually only a creator would have. 4) it's incredibly hard to create something original. because it's so hard to get a weave approved here, this creates a huge excitement when a weave does get approved. it makes the weave special, something this person put a lot of work into. this experience of personal hard work is the foundation of ownership mentality. 5) this is the largest database of chainmaille weaves in existence. that make this site the authority on weaves. people, like me, come here to look for who made what to give them credit. we don't want to publish our work in the world without giving credit to the people that put in work before us. and this is the only place that gives semi reliable information about that. 6) the date submitted. this tells the user when the weave was submitted. so, when there is any issue on who "created" something first, everyone looks here to see WHEN it was submitted to solve the issue.

you may want people to have a more "weave submitter" mindset, but this site encourages "weave ownership" mindset.


Mostly because I was screamed into the ground when I pointed out how much that stifled innovation, and how much it prevented collaboration.
Super happy fun times.

All of those things were on the docket to be different. Loud dissenting voices yelled “mine mine mine” and threw hot acid on a wonderful set of plans for innovation...
It was truly a lovely experience, one that I relish the chance to re-live.

So much holdover, so much resistance to change.
Stagnation and apathy.



Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
Submissions: 14

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:13 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Daemon_Lotos wrote:
mithrilweaver wrote:
yep weave council please.

the issue with the submitter vs creator thing is that the policies on mail makes the user think and feel like each member is a creator when they submit a weave. 1) their member name goes on the weave page. whenever a person's name is on something, they think they own it. 2) "my" mail under the user panel. this indicates that all the weaves and articles and gallery images listed there are "mine." 3) the policy of no one can change the weave name or picture except the original submitter. this gives the submitter a lot of power. power that usually only a creator would have. 4) it's incredibly hard to create something original. because it's so hard to get a weave approved here, this creates a huge excitement when a weave does get approved. it makes the weave special, something this person put a lot of work into. this experience of personal hard work is the foundation of ownership mentality. 5) this is the largest database of chainmaille weaves in existence. that make this site the authority on weaves. people, like me, come here to look for who made what to give them credit. we don't want to publish our work in the world without giving credit to the people that put in work before us. and this is the only place that gives semi reliable information about that. 6) the date submitted. this tells the user when the weave was submitted. so, when there is any issue on who "created" something first, everyone looks here to see WHEN it was submitted to solve the issue.

you may want people to have a more "weave submitter" mindset, but this site encourages "weave ownership" mindset.


Mostly because I was screamed into the ground when I pointed out how much that stifled innovation, and how much it prevented collaboration.
Super happy fun times.

All of those things were on the docket to be different. Loud dissenting voices yelled “mine mine mine” and threw hot acid on a wonderful set of plans for innovation...
It was truly a lovely experience, one that I relish the chance to re-live.

So much holdover, so much resistance to change.
Stagnation and apathy.


Those Voices are gone now, aren’t they?

Let’s build a better world, together! Wink


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3107
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 20, 2019 5:16 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Karpeth wrote:
Those Voices are gone now, aren’t they?

Let’s build a better world, together! Wink


Voices lurk. But perhaps.

But this thread itself is indicative of many who are still here being resistant to giving up the “mine mine mine” ideal.

It’s an overarching conversation that won’t solve itself overnight.
But it needs to become a conversation instead of a heated argument based on a situation, first....



Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:26 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

i'm all for building a better weave database with a clear mission and clear rules. whether it's geared toward "weave submission" or "weave ownership," i don't mind. just as long as it's clear which path is being taken.



Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 7:40 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

from the member point of view, the site rules are saying one thing and the administration is saying another thing. wouldn't it be more useful and productive to be focused on the same mission? it's like this site is in a constant fight with itself, unable to move forward on any path. i suppose you need to ask yourself, are you part of the problem or part of the cure? do something. vote on something. please!



Joined: March 10, 2015
Posts: 39
Submissions: 6

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:05 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

mithrilweaver wrote:
i think we can all agree that it's not a good feeling to see a weave rejected and then someone else gets the same weave approved.


I don't agree with this statement. If I think a weave is worth submitting, then I'd be happier when it gets approved, regardless of whose submission pushed it over the top.

If you think everyone else would feel bad in this scenario, you're wrong. Some people just want a more complete database and truly don't care if their name is attached to bits of it.

Joined: August 30, 2010
Posts: 696
Submissions: 14

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:39 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

EricN wrote:
mithrilweaver wrote:
i think we can all agree that it's not a good feeling to see a weave rejected and then someone else gets the same weave approved.


I don't agree with this statement. If I think a weave is worth submitting, then I'd be happier when it gets approved, regardless of whose submission pushed it over the top.

If you think everyone else would feel bad in this scenario, you're wrong. Some people just want a more complete database and truly don't care if their name is attached to bits of it.


Weaves ”I” ”created”, have been submitted by others, and I feel better that they are in the library. I Don’t care about my name being on them.

I wholeheartedly agree with Eric.


Total Nerd: MScDS, Mailler, Gamer.

Joined: October 22, 2010
Posts: 729
Submissions: 389
Location: Yucaipa, CA

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:31 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

that's so interesting. mind blown. i thought everyone would feel disrespected by a situation like this. it's not about "i" or ownership of a weave. for me, it's about first come first serve respect. to me, it's like cutting in line. i was first and someone cut me in line and put the weave in. i'm happy either way that the weave is in, but i'm upset that i was cut in line and disrespected. does that make sense? and i know the person didn't know they were cutting me in line, but once it's found out, the situation should be fixed. there should be some remedy or fix. and it's simple enough to reject the second submitter and accept the first. i just don't understand why that's not an option. i don't understand the admin standing by and doing nothing to fix it.



Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3107
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:45 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

mithrilweaver wrote:
that's so interesting. mind blown. i thought everyone would feel disrespected by a situation like this. it's not about "i" or ownership of a weave. for me, it's about first come first serve respect. to me, it's like cutting in line. i was first and someone cut me in line and put the weave in. i'm happy either way that the weave is in, but i'm upset that i was cut in line and disrespected. does that make sense? and i know the person didn't know they were cutting me in line, but once it's found out, the situation should be fixed. there should be some remedy or fix. and it's simple enough to reject the second submitter and accept the first. i just don't understand why that's not an option. i don't understand the admin standing by and doing nothing to fix it.


Because it’s not an “accept the first submitter” situation.

The (your) original submission was declined. The weave admin decided (for whatever reason) that it did not fit the criteria. It was moved to the Gallery.
It wasn’t “not accepted yet”... It was actively declined.

Another submission was made by another user, perhaps with a different description or image, or upon review by a new weave admin, the weave was decided valid. Thus the only existing submission at the time was accepted.

This is NOT the same as “Two submissions, but mine was first.”

Am I missing something here?



Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3107
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 21, 2019 10:48 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

And we’re doing plenty.

We’re actively discussing how to handle a situation.
I’m sorry it’s not going exactly how you expected.

That is not the same as “standing by and doing nothing to fix it”... Not even remotely.



Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 2 of 4. Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
All times are GMT. The time now is Fri Nov 22, 2019 2:47 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Weaves Discussion
Display posts from previous: