Iron Wire-Australia
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
   
Author Message

Joined: October 28, 2018
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0

Iron Wire-Australia
Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:06 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

From what most scholars say, original Maille was made with Iron, not steel, but, I have no idea where I can get 2mm Iron, or even mild steel wire in Australia. I found one source for Mild steel wire, that being in Britain. If anyone could help, it would be greatly appreciated.

Joined: May 26, 2010
Posts: 236
Submissions: 30

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:33 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

You basically can't get authentic, bloomery-iron wire anymore unless you make it yourself. Surely you can find 1.5mm mild steel tie wire at your local hardware store.

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3474
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Oct 28, 2018 10:28 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

It's a/k/a "black annealed tie wire," almost invariably 1.6mm diameter. Baling wire.

Chemically pure iron wire isn't much worth doing anything structural with. Somebody sent me a sample, I coiled it. It cut easy enough, being soft. It also broke very easily; no strength at all.

The other place for mild steel wire is a welders' supplies store. Get wire that is suitable for welding mild steel, like the A36 stuff. The wire will come very workhardened, so you'll have to crude-anneal/normalize it: heat to red, cool in air or cool slowly over several hours for the fullest anneal. But just letting it cool in air should do enough; that is generally called "normalizing."

There is usually a favorable price break if you buy enough of it in bulk -- right around the 25kg mark.

Are you thinking of riveted mail?


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: October 28, 2018
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:43 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Quote:
You basically can't get authentic, bloomery-iron wire anymore unless you make it yourself. Surely you can find 1.5mm mild steel tie wire at your local hardware store.

I'm in rural SA. the local hardware store is closing. The only other hardware store is a mitre-10 franchise, it only stocks galv wire, for farming.

Also, most medieval Maille was a riveted, solid alternating pattern. a few examples are just riveted. The only examples of butted Maille from this period is horse Armour.

is this what you mean https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-on-site-1-57mm-x-95m-annealed-tie-wire-belt-pack_p1069697

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3474
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:40 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

General_Scipio wrote:
Also, most medieval Maille was a riveted, solid alternating pattern. a few examples are just riveted. The only examples of butted Maille from this period is horse Armour.


If even that. I'm unaware of mail horse-barding examples even in period art. Horse armor extant in the metal is pieces of plate and of later date. The most common articulation to these plate ensembles was articulated crinets, riding where the horse's mane does, armoring primarily the horse's spine and roughly the upper part of his neck, for defense against the longest-range threat of the arrow. There's like one experiment for articulated armor for a charger's legs. I don't think it actually worked, as to even get the beast to a trot would have him laboring along as if he were wearing galoshess. The piece has stayed in a museum, but as a curiosity.

Better to say "some medieval mail was . . ." as The Mail Research Society http://www.erikds.com/ reports in its Journal there were broad, although not absolute, trends throughout the mail era. Working/fighting mail of the Middle Ages may be divided into two morphological eras, early Middle Ages when we begin to see an extensive amount of mail yet preserved to the present day, and late Middle Ages/Renaissance -- where we have even more. The earlier times were much more likely to have half riveted-half solid, or punched-out, rings. At some decade in the fourteenth century, perhaps associated with the Black Plague outbreaks of mid-century, mail with every link riveted became very preponderant. This changeover also took some while; armor's durable stuff.

Nobody is completely certain why, and the reasons why that are suggested have a lot of speculation in them. It's plausible to argue some change in the relative supplies of sheet metal (practically all of which was very refined wrought iron -- its silica inclusions were very small) and wire drawn of similar material, or of true mild steel. This change would be reflected in their respective prices, and if wire were to become markedly cheaper than sheet, a shift away from punched-out solid rings is likely. There is evidence wire-drawing mills were becoming increasiongly common and likely more productive per mill. Something, at any rate, began to favor wire. In riveted mail manufacture, wire can have practically nil wasted material -- you can get any remaining end of a wire coil laid down upon the coiling mandrel. No scrap at all. If you even have any wire bits left over, you can flatten these into ribbons to cut triangular rivets from. Even then, wire was probably not as cheap in terms of cash money as we can get it for; there was still hand labor to it, and labor costs rose a lot in the Plague. But if sheet became more expensive yet...

Nobody then happened to write any of that stuff down where we can get at it now.

The use of flat, triangular rivets, resembling a 1/48-scale slice of pizza for size and shape, was another development of the fourteenth century and forwards. They're simpler to make than some of the rivet forms used in earlier mail; there is some Viking-era stuff closed with rivets that look downright strange -- rivets that resemble whisk brooms, with a neck to pein over and a broad other end. What a fuss

One unknown factor or another, or a combination of factors, led to a changeover to the later morphology of mail: all-riveted stuff. Which was not exclusive; some well-enough-dated (mail's hard to date by just examining it) half-riveted was still getting made, just as there seemed to be some all-riveted made during the earlier era.

Size of link, inner diameter (ID) varied with application. An example of mail on a barded horse, with some mail in between the major plates -- on the horse's flank -- that I've seen up close had links about half an inch ID, the link wire much flattened as by hammering, and apparently tinned, causing the still-visible riveted closures to be rather submerged. By contrast, the brayette-of-mail, fairly snug mail drawers shaped not unlike athletic shorts, could be of links of about 1/8" ID -- in the range of 3mm-4mm. The average size range for mail links worn on the warrior went about 6mm-8mm in modern measure. This was about the right balance between weight to carry and protection, along with a wire diameter of close to 1mm. 1.6mm would amount to "double mail," which got some mention in literature -- and damned little exact description. That "double" meant heavier wire rather than any other possibility is mostly shown by detective work. There is no certain existing example of a double-mail hauberk or other form of mailshirt that I've heard of. Stories give accounts of knights doubling up on mail shirts for particular purposes such as being better protected in a joust. They rode lighter on actual war and campaign, which helped spare the horses. Knights of the age of mail eventually came to adopt three sorts of supplemental protection on their torso, two soft and one hard and sometimes of iron as well. The soft ones were the exterior gambeson, quilted cloth worn over the hauberk and under the surcoat, to take some velocity off an arrow in particular as well as helping absorb sword blows; the cuirie, a stout leather cuirass, that did the same thing and research suggests this was of very simple cut and sleeveless like the gambeson. The pair-of-plates was the hard torso armor, a vest constructed of numerous small and similar pieces fairly flexibly joined by whatever method came to hand, the pieces being roughly the size of your hand or as small as the size of your palm. These supplemental armor bits are known from period art, and even then are but partially seen, mostly still covered with a surcoat. Students of armor would like to get a better look -- which they aren't, so "plates" are not well known. Even the Maciejowski Bible's illuminations don't show any, though it does have some gambesons and a particularly notable illustration in 2 Samuel (I think it's 2 Samuel; 1st Samuel? -- one of the two) of David taking a 13th-century hauberk off, bending over and pushing the thing off over his head with gravity to help.

In times before the high Middle Ages, mail finds fall off steeply. This appears to be because of corrosion, and repurposing mail fragments too. The stuff does work for scrubbing messy cookpots out; such wet work also uses up the mail potscrubber fast, in a year or two. Mail kept for martial purposes in European atmospheric conditions is in a race between corrosion and maintenance that gives it a shelf life of six or seven hundred years maximum. About then the holes in the mesh are getting too big, and too much is missing.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3474
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:54 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

We mean this kind of stuff (for heavy mail anyway)
https://www.amazon.com/American-Wire-Tie-coils-Annealed/dp/B071H4GHYC

Black, soft, comes in rolls, rolls may be ordered in quantity like in this link above, going on 30 kilos I think. For a hundred dollars. You probably want to be looking at Amazon.au anyway, though.

Finding the same kind of wire drawn thinner, which would be close to perfect, is hard to do. That's why I suggested looking into welder wire suppliers and annealing the stuff yourself.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: May 26, 2010
Posts: 236
Submissions: 30

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:34 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

General_Scipio wrote:
Quote:
You basically can't get authentic, bloomery-iron wire anymore unless you make it yourself. Surely you can find 1.5mm mild steel tie wire at your local hardware store.

I'm in rural SA. the local hardware store is closing. The only other hardware store is a mitre-10 franchise, it only stocks galv wire, for farming.


I'd be very surprised if it didn't have black annealed too.

Quote:
Also, most medieval Maille was a riveted, solid alternating pattern. a few examples are just riveted. The only examples of butted Maille from this period is horse Armour.


Yes, I'm aware.

Quote:
is this what you mean https://www.bunnings.com.au/whites-on-site-1-57mm-x-95m-annealed-tie-wire-belt-pack_p1069697


That's the stuff. I've been using this for a while and it looks pretty good.

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3474
Submissions: 1

Re: Iron Wire-Australia
Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Nov 04, 2018 3:58 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

General_Scipio wrote:
From what most scholars say, original Maille was made with Iron, not steel, but, I have no idea where I can get 2mm Iron, or even mild steel wire in Australia. I found one source for Mild steel wire, that being in Britain. If anyone could help . . .


Now I think it's about time we get it clear what you wish to make, and for what purpose, of this 2mm wire that you'd much rather not be galvy.

1. A riveted-link piece, for which 2mm steel is overkill, 1mm being nearer to the mark historically and significantly easier to work in the flatten-overlap-pierce-rivet steps of linkmaking. This would be both very strong and very authentic. Aluminum has metal fatigue problems and you mostly don't want to struggle with them.

2. A Creative Anachronist-type butted-link piece, for which 2mm wire would do nicely, typically-SCA sized links of 8 to 9mm ID. This might as well be in galvy wire.

This is a rather too large spread of possibilities. You can go ahead and tell us what your exact goal is; we don't mind. Shirt, standard-of-mail, mail sleeves, camail, mail whatever. Helps us focus on something relevant and actually useful to your project. And we don't sell the information to Hydra or Doctor Evil.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: October 28, 2018
Posts: 3
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Nov 04, 2018 6:08 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Problem solved.

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3474
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Nov 05, 2018 6:03 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Yay.

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT. The time now is Thu Jul 18, 2019 10:01 am
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
Display posts from previous: