Captive Ring/Orbital Ring definition inconsistency
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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 8:49 pm
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TCG I agree that once we get things figured out here we should start a thread devoted to discussing what we come up with.

I am not sure I understand what the "symbiont" would be. Any examples or further explanation? I am open to adding it as long as Narrina is, it will impact her more than anybody else.


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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:15 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
I am not sure I understand what the "symbiont" would be. Any examples or further explanation? I am open to adding it as long as Narrina is, it will impact her more than anybody else.


I would define it as a weave in which 2 individual weaves are structurally connected through only orbital and/or captive connections.

A handful of examples after a quick peruse through the library:
Dragonscale : 2 European 4 in 1
2 in 1 Captive Parallel, Enthrall, and Captive 2 in 1 Chain : 2 2 in 1 Chain, some doubled
Captive Zen : 2 in 2 chain and Japanese 4 in 1


while(!project.isFinished())
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Posted on Tue Apr 03, 2018 11:16 pm
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MusicMan wrote:
I am not sure I understand what the "symbiont" would be. Any examples or further explanation? I am open to adding it as long as Narrina is, it will impact her more than anybody else.


We have a few weaves where the final structure is, essentially, a symbiosis of two independent chains. They hold together using similar non-structural concepts to the captive/orbital weaves. As true captive/orbitals do not connect into any other ring, these weaves don't fully fit in these categories (thus I'd like to make a new category/tag for them).

Other examples I've found are:

Interlock
Dragon Japanese 4 in 1
Captive 2 in 1 Chain



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Posted on Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:13 pm
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Thank you Narrina I think I now understand your Symbiont thinking.

How would we fashion a good definition for it?


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Posted on Wed Apr 04, 2018 5:43 pm
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Wouldn’t captive inverted round staggered Sheet be one of these symbionts?


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Posted on Thu Apr 05, 2018 1:07 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
Wouldn’t captive inverted round staggered Sheet be one of these symbionts?


No, CIR is a true captive weave. 'Symbiont' would only be used for the weaves where the captive/orbital behaviour involves two (or more) independent chains so as to distinguish them from true captive/orbital weaves since those terms are only used for weaves where the captive/orbital rings connect into no other rings.


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Posted on Thu Apr 05, 2018 2:40 pm
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CIR is captive, I agree.
CIRSS, however contains one grain IR, one grain 2-1?


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Posted on Thu Apr 05, 2018 3:15 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
CIR is captive, I agree.
CIRSS, however contains one grain IR, one grain 2-1?


Sorry! Misread your post. Lol. Yes, that would make it symbiont rather than captive.


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Posted on Thu Apr 05, 2018 4:32 pm
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Nárrína wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
CIR is captive, I agree.
CIRSS, however contains one grain IR, one grain 2-1?


Sorry! Misread your post. Lol. Yes, that would make it symbiont rather than captive.


So, basically:

Orbital:
Where a ring, or ringlike ring substitution (eg möbius) is Held in place in a weave, by resting outside other ring elements, being Held in place by only weave elements, not otherwise connected to it.

Captive:
Where a ring (...) is Held in place in a weave, by resting inside other ring elements, being Held in place by only weave elements, not otherwise connected to it.

Symbiont:
Where rings interact such that rings are forced into positions by using connections that would be deemed orbital or captive, but where the o/c ring utilizes classical connections as Well

Classical connections:
AE, TE, ASE, TSE. Cousins?


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Posted on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:22 pm
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For all the links...
Staggered Captive Inverted Round Sheet (note that it is SCIRS, not CIRSS) contains both Captive Inverted Round and 2 in 1 Chain (kinged for more captives)

Karpeth wrote:
Classical connections:
AE, TE, ASE, TSE. Cousins?


I don't make a verbal distinction between AE and ASE. The connection list I use is AE, TE, Cousin... until someone asks for more specificity.
Of course we could bring in this article: Names for the Different Types of 'Eyes'. Using their terminology, one could specify ALHE, ARHE, ACSE, ACCSE, TLHE, TRHE, TCSE, and TCCSE just to name the eye connections. I'd need to think about it a bit more, but I think that captive and orbital connections are specific types of cousin connections. Not all cousin connections are described by orbital and captive, though.

I think it would be a hilarious thread to describe constructing a weave using only very specific "add ring" statements and see who is first to guess it. When the specificity isn't enough to describe a unique weave, maybe we would need a new term coined to make distinction.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
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Posted on Thu Apr 05, 2018 10:43 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
For all the links...
Staggered Captive Inverted Round Sheet (note that it is SCIRS, not CIRSS) contains both Captive Inverted Round and 2 in 1 Chain (kinged for more captives)

Karpeth wrote:
Classical connections:
AE, TE, ASE, TSE. Cousins?


I don't make a verbal distinction between AE and ASE. The connection list I use is AE, TE, Cousin... until someone asks for more specificity.
Of course we could bring in this article: Names for the Different Types of 'Eyes'. Using their terminology, one could specify ALHE, ARHE, ACSE, ACCSE, TLHE, TRHE, TCSE, and TCCSE just to name the eye connections. I'd need to think about it a bit more, but I think that captive and orbital connections are specific types of cousin connections. Not all cousin connections are described by orbital and captive, though.

I think it would be a hilarious thread to describe constructing a weave using only very specific "add ring" statements and see who is first to guess it. When the specificity isn't enough to describe a unique weave, maybe we would need a new term coined to make distinction.


Thanks for linking the discussed weaves.

Regarding the definition on Classic, I was trying to be effective and short; as that part has been defined in so many ways, and yes, those 8 should be all possible eye connections. (The NE, is definitly always reducable to a different connection)

For me, I would not define cousin in a way that includes C/O/S.


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Posted on Mon Apr 09, 2018 3:32 pm
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So just to review:

Orbital Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is held in place by planet ring(s) which the orbital ring passes around while never passing through.
Example:Orbital

Captive Ring: A ring whose sole structural interaction is held in place by either cage ring(s), that the captive ring neither pass around nor through, or sandwich rings, which involve both an orbital interaction as well as one or more captive interactions.
Example of Cage:Captive Inverted Round
Example of Sandwich: Helm

Symbiont Rings: where the captive/orbital behavior involves two (or more) independent chains so as to distinguish them from true captive/orbital weaves since those.
Example:Interlock


If everybody is OK with these definitions I think we should present them to the community in a separate thread in either the weaves, knitting or articles forum.

Thoughts?


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Posted on Mon Apr 09, 2018 4:48 pm
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I see Both terms as a bit to inclusive, and I’d rather view helm as orbital, rather than captive. (My argument is from the likeness of [weave=orbit])

Symbiont also miss a Word or more.


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Posted on Mon Apr 09, 2018 5:04 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
I see Both terms as a bit to inclusive,


How do you feel Both terms as being a bit to inclusive? Which two terms are we talking about?

karpeth wrote:
and I’d rather view helm as orbital, rather than captive. (My argument is from the likeness of [weave=orbit])


I can see your point for Helm, although I would still classify it under captive. If you take away the captive, sandwich, rings the "orbital" ring would fall out. Thus, to me, showing that it is more of a captive than an orbital, although the orbital does exist.

karpeth wrote:
Symbiont also miss a Word or more.



Yes Razz I missed some things in Symbiont.
How about this:
Symbiont Rings: where the captive/orbital behavior involves the interaction of two (or more) independent chains.


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Posted on Mon Apr 09, 2018 10:16 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
I see Both terms as a bit to inclusive, and I’d rather view helm as orbital, rather than captive. (My argument is from the likeness of [weave=orbit])


Orbit is an interesting weave for these definitions. It technically contains a set of sandwich rings. The clear interaction is the orbital connection, but it definitely has a captive interaction as well. Defining which rings are the acting cage rings is a bit more difficult and might require diagrams... but they do exist. If cage rings weren't present, those satellite rings from the orbital interaction would simply slide off the end of the chain.
In fact, this feature is the structural characteristic that distinguishes it from Orbital.

I think the more interesting question would be... Does kinging an orbital (satellite) ring make it a sandwich ring? According to my proposed definitions, the answer is yes.
Are cage rings still cage rings if they have no captive ring enclosed?
This is my big intent for referring to interactions instead of naming rings. Ring naming has always been a messy inconsistent adventure of logical contradictions for me. Interactions, on the other hand, can draw much clearer lines without issues.

MusicMan wrote:
Symbiont Rings: where the captive/orbital behavior involves the interaction of two (or more) independent chains.


I'm not sure that "Symbiont" can refer to "Rings". I've viewed it as entire weaves.
Definitely change "chains" to "weaves", because it definitely exists with sheets as well. (Dragonscale, Captive Zen sheet variants).


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
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