Historical riveted maille from scratch: Riveting issues
View previous topic | View next topic >
Post new topic Reply to topic
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
   
Author Message

Joined: February 14, 2016
Posts: 6
Submissions: 0

Historical riveted maille from scratch: Riveting issues
Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Feb 14, 2016 8:01 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Greetings to all!

I'm new to the world of historical riveted maille making. I'm experimenting a little with the techniques needed to produce historical-like round riveted maille. The goal is to reconstruct a mail maker of the mid-XIII century.

The maille I'm working on has 6mm ID and 1,5mm wire, made with annealed iron wire I buy at my local hardware store.

By now I can quite successful flatten and pierce the rings, with quite properly made tools. Now I'm stuck with riveting.

I use 1mm annealed iron wire to make rivets. I have a problem with such rivets: they simply bend when squeezed with the pliers...the best I've managed to get are some rings with one side which is squeezed, and the other bending. Also, the rivet heads looks too small to bear any stress...

Here are some images of the faulty rings and of my riveting plier.



















Any help would be appreciated. Thanks in advance![/img]

Joined: July 25, 2008
Posts: 843
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 15, 2016 5:40 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

It takes a bit of experamenting to find something your happy with.
A few things to try.
Shorter rivets, it should make things less bendy.

You might also need to change the pliers a little.
Squeezing effects the head a bit different than a hammer blow.
Much like punching something instead of pushing causes a different result.
You can try striking the pliers with a hammer or try using a "nail set"

Konstantin may have some other sugestions.

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3424
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Mon Feb 15, 2016 9:24 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Lostie's covered it, particularly that your rivets may be a fraction of a millimeter too long yet. Your rivet head size really looks okay -- try to rip a link apart and see how much trouble you have. And like he said, test-rivet using a nail-set wth a cup/hollow point intended to keep it from slipping off the brad, the small, smallheaded nail used for nailing finish-carpentry up (molding, etc.) to see if you want to upset your rivet heads any more or if that will even be necessary.

Drifting the hole open can also give you a conical hole, more this \ / than this | |. which is an advantage in one way: makes the rivet fill up what amounts to a countersunk hole and you don't have to worry so much about the size of the rivet heads. The disadvantage is there's less resistance to having that rivet bend over, so Mad aaargh.


'The Minstrel Boy to the War is gone...'

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 972
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:44 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

the rivets are too long but I see another problem too. The recess in your rivet set pliers looks far too large and too deep. I would estimate it at about 4.5mm diameter when it should be less than 2.5mm diameter and 1.25mm deep.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: February 14, 2016
Posts: 6
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2016 6:14 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I finally managed to get a Dremel tool and fine bits to modify my pliers. The hollow is now nearly of half width than before, and nearly as deep. I modified my drift point to be more acute to avoid getting a conical hole. Still, no results at all. Rivets continue to bend. I tried also to anneal the rivet wire, but nothing changed. I even tried to squeeze them when red hot, after heating with a torch. Nothing changed.

The last thing I'll try is drilling the hole with small bit, only to see if that's a conical hole problem or a plier problem. But I need the holes to be drifted, as I'm reconstructing medieval mailmaker tools, and they had not drills.

Here are some pictures of the tools I use with measurements, hope it can help.

The piercing tool I use, with size comparison with the rings (6mm ID per 1.5mm wire)


Some pierced rings


Riveted rings front...


..and back

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3054
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2016 8:12 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

It still looks like the rivets are too long... Confused



Joined: February 14, 2016
Posts: 6
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2016 9:28 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

I leave about 1mm per side...tomorrow I'll take some photos of it...well, I tried with a shorter one...but the squeezed heads are just too small and the ring opens without difficulty...it seems to me that the rivet doesn't squeeze at all, tending to bending instead...can't figure why, as the wire seems to have been properly annealed (brought to red colour using a propane torch and left cool)...

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 972
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Thu Mar 17, 2016 11:28 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Okay, the drift looks bad. The surface of the taper needs to be polished and the draft angle of the hole should be less than 5 degrees for pin rivets.

A long taper on a small drift isn't very practical so I'd suggest using a stepped design to get a consistent hole.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3424
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Mar 18, 2016 12:24 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Maybe drift your holes a little bigger if necessary to get the wire in, and use slightly thicker wire, to solve the proportion difficulty from another angle?

Joined: February 14, 2016
Posts: 6
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:14 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Quote:

Okay, the drift looks bad. The surface of the taper needs to be polished and the draft angle of the hole should be less than 5 degrees for pin rivets.

A long taper on a small drift isn't very practical so I'd suggest using a stepped design to get a consistent hole.


Lorenzo, I was thinking it would be a drift problem too. I'm making a new one today...but, could you please explain what you mean by "stepped design"? And, if you can (it would be of huge help), could you kindly provide a picture of what I should make? Thanks!

@konstantin: i use 1mm annealed wire by now..I tried with 1.5mm (the same diameter as the ring wire), but I only managed to tear the flattened overlap when drifting the hole...O suppose 1.2mm wire would be ideal, I'll give a try after fixing the drift..! I don't know what historical specimens use, I can't find any informations about that...

Joined: February 14, 2016
Posts: 6
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Mar 18, 2016 11:55 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

Another question: what should I use as a drift? I worked mine out of a Beta 2mm pin punch..I got another one to make the new drift, but the first hole I drifted I got my point broken...

Joined: August 30, 2008
Posts: 3054
Submissions: 20
Location: Burlington, ON, Canada

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Mar 18, 2016 1:10 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

d3ntin wrote:
Another question: what should I use as a drift? I worked mine out of a Beta 2mm pin punch..I got another one to make the new drift, but the first hole I drifted I got my point broken...


People have used masonry nails for this in the past... Mainly due to cheap cost, breakage, and availability.



Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 972
Submissions: 243

Reply with quote
Posted on Fri Mar 18, 2016 4:28 pm
Link to Post: Link to Post

Using a pin punch is a good idea, it's likely to be good tough tool steel. I would probably temper it down a bit just to be sure it doesn't break, having a nice smooth polished finish on the tool will also help to keep it from breaking.

So basically what I mean by the stepped design is that you need a sharp tip for piercing but then you should have a nearly cylindrical section about 1.2mm diameter. It doesn't need to be very long, only a few mm and then you can have the main body of the punch.

I don't have any pictures of tools handy, It's been years since I've riveted anything, I only do welded rings lately.

As far as wire diameter goes you should really use the same size wire for both rivets and rings. 1.2mm is a great size, 1.5 mm is a bit thick but still fine.


http://www.mailletec.com

Y'know, that might just be crazy enough to work!

Joined: March 27, 2002
Posts: 3424
Submissions: 1

Reply with quote
Posted on Sun Mar 20, 2016 9:01 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

d3ntin wrote:
@konstantin: i use 1mm annealed wire by now..I tried with 1.5mm (the same diameter as the ring wire), but I only managed to tear the flattened overlap when drifting the hole...O suppose 1.2mm wire would be ideal, I'll give a try after fixing the drift..!


At what point do you normalize your links -- after what step and before what step in your process? If the overlaps aren't softened, they could crack, due to workhardening.

Joined: February 14, 2016
Posts: 6
Submissions: 0

Reply with quote
Posted on Tue Apr 12, 2016 11:46 am
Link to Post: Link to Post

I normalize them both before flattening and before drifting the hole...I use a Kemper torch, and when available my fireplace...

Post new topic Reply to topic
Jump to:  
Page 1 of 1
All times are GMT. The time now is Sat Feb 16, 2019 4:27 pm
M.A.I.L. Forum Index -> Knitting Circle
Display posts from previous: