Searching by bolting type
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Searching by bolting type
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Posted on Thu Sep 17, 2015 7:38 pm
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Is it just me, or wouldn't it be nice to search by bolting type?

Several weaves are "bolted", while currently not accepted when submitted with single ring bolting, Harvest Moon style bolting has been more "OK".

Of the top of my head, These are the types of "bolts" I'd like to search by:
Single Ring - The unit/cell is connected to the next with a single bolt ring
eg Byzantine
"Moon" - Twists the cell 90°
eg Moon 4 in 2 Captive

And these could perhaps be useful
Box - Twists in the same way as moon, works better w/ orbital ended weaves.
Would work with Tetra Orb or [weave=Japanese 4 in 1 paired orbital unit]*

*Pending, in queue


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Re: Searching by bolting type
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Posted on Thu Sep 17, 2015 11:49 pm
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Karpeth wrote:
Is it just me, or wouldn't it be nice to search by bolting type?

Not really helpful to me. Most weaves can be bolted together. Multiple weaves can be bolted together. It's a matter of design, in my opinion.

Karpeth wrote:
Several weaves are "bolted", while currently not accepted when submitted with single ring bolting, Harvest Moon style bolting has been more "OK".

Yes it has been discussed before. Bolting with one ring, or multiple rings is not the point. Bolting is the point. There are weaves in the library that would not currently be accepted. But at least one or two weaves that exhibit bolting (or kinging, or mobiusing, or berusing, or a progression) must be in the library for people get the idea of that particular ring interaction.

Karpeth wrote:
Of the top of my head, These are the types of "bolts" I'd like to search by:
Single Ring - The unit/cell is connected to the next with a single bolt ring
eg Byzantine
"Moon" - Twists the cell 90°
eg Moon 4 in 2 Captive

Really? You can't see these in your head, or at the very least, make some and submit it to the gallery? Not trying to be an ass... but really? This is why weave bloat happens.

Karpeth wrote:
And these could perhaps be useful
Box - Twists in the same way as moon, works better w/ orbital ended weaves.
Would work with Tetra Orb or [weave=Japanese 4 in 1 paired orbital unit]*

*Pending, in queue

Anything in the weave queue (or any of the queues) is worth a look. That doesn't mean it deserves to be a new weave, though.


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Re: Searching by bolting type
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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:04 am
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lorraine wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
Is it just me, or wouldn't it be nice to search by bolting type?

Not really helpful to me. Most weaves can be bolted together. Multiple weaves can be bolted together. It's a matter of design, in my opinion.

We differ Pacman from Byzantine. It is a matter of design, but it's a QOL upgrade suggestion.
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
Several weaves are "bolted", while currently not accepted when submitted with single ring bolting, Harvest Moon style bolting has been more "OK".

Yes it has been discussed before. Bolting with one ring, or multiple rings is not the point. Bolting is the point. There are weaves in the library that would not currently be accepted. But at least one or two weaves that exhibit bolting (or kinging, or mobiusing, or berusing, or a progression) must be in the library for people get the idea of that particular ring interaction.

Well, Currently, it's a mash. I'd hope we somewhen in the future get a library where we cook everything down to the essensials.
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
Of the top of my head, These are the types of "bolts" I'd like to search by:
Single Ring - The unit/cell is connected to the next with a single bolt ring
eg Byzantine
"Moon" - Twists the cell 90°
eg Moon 4 in 2 Captive

Really? You can't see these in your head, or at the very least, make some and submit it to the gallery?
I can see the connection quite clearly. I am just asking for a QOL upgrade so that one could find the current weaves a bit quicker.
lorraine wrote:
Not trying to be an ass... but really? This is why weave bloat happens.

I am not asking for additional weaves, I am asking for a search function? The only part I could say is "being an ass" is saying "not trying to be an ass", as that implies some sort of intent.

The reason weave bloat happens is because there is not enough cleanup. When someone "discovers" a nonbolted version, such as the byz topic recently, the bolted version should be removed.
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
And these could perhaps be useful
Box - Twists in the same way as moon, works better w/ orbital ended weaves.
Would work with Tetra Orb or [weave=Japanese 4 in 1 paired orbital unit]*

*Pending, in queue

Anything in the weave queue (or any of the queues) is worth a look. That doesn't mean it deserves to be a new weave, though.


That's why I put "pending" there. That's the name it's suggested under. If it's moved, then I accept that.


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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:28 am
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I'll say the same thing that I've said in other threads of yours again:

TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
What could be done? Make a details list of all the weaves that should be marked as ______ and start discussing the list. Maybe then, a mod can go through, add a new tag, and make it searchable.


4 weaves doesn't constitute a searchable parameter to me. 6 doesn't either, but the community disagrees on me on that (as shown by "shaggy" and "spiked"). I'm also a stickler for definitions (and specifically how to distinguish one from another). A good format would be to do something similar to this thread.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 1:57 am
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
I'll say the same thing that I've said in other threads of yours again:

TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
What could be done? Make a details list of all the weaves that should be marked as ______ and start discussing the list. Maybe then, a mod can go through, add a new tag, and make it searchable.


4 weaves doesn't constitute a searchable parameter to me. 6 doesn't either, but the community disagrees on me on that (as shown by "shaggy" and "spiked"). I'm also a stickler for definitions (and specifically how to distinguish one from another). A good format would be to do something similar to this thread.


Well Then.

If I understand you correctly, I will soon supply definitions for the different bolting types we have in the library, as well as a list I'd like for a tag to be implemented for.


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Re: Searching by bolting type
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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:39 am
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Karpeth wrote:
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
Several weaves are "bolted", while currently not accepted when submitted with single ring bolting, Harvest Moon style bolting has been more "OK".

Yes it has been discussed before. Bolting with one ring, or multiple rings is not the point. Bolting is the point. There are weaves in the library that would not currently be accepted. But at least one or two weaves that exhibit bolting (or kinging, or mobiusing, or berusing, or a progression) must be in the library for people get the idea of that particular ring interaction.
Well, Currently, it's a mash. I'd hope we somewhen in the future get a library where we cook everything down to the essensials.

Why? Why add to the madness? When we delete something, we have to give an explanation. "I remember this weave, it was like this (user inserts a picture). Why is it gone?" Then we have to point them to where it went, or explain. "It was a bolted/kinged/scaled/berused/mobiused/shaggied/spiked weave. We cooked everything down to the essentials, and this is what you get." And what you get is still a library full of bloat...
Karpeth wrote:
I am not asking for additional weaves, I am asking for a search function? The only part I could say is "being an ass" is saying "not trying to be an ass", as that implies some sort of intent.

What? I specifically said, "Not trying to be an ass". You are assuming an intent that is not there... that I specifically said wasn't there.

The search function is there. On the weave page. If anyone has done anything with that weave, like bolted it, the picture will be there. If you don't see one, then submit one. Or write an article. That's why you are able to make submissions to the library. Fill the holes you see instead of insisting that someone else do it. DL already wrote the code so others can fill in the holes.

Karpeth wrote:
The reason weave bloat happens is because there is not enough cleanup. When someone "discovers" a nonbolted version, such as the byz topic recently, the bolted version should be removed.

There is no way to win here. We either get blasted for deleting something, or we are criticized for keeping things in the library as we found them when we got here. You have one opinion. Others have another.

I happen to agree with you. I think there are obvious things that should be deleted from the library. Will it happen because you and I think is should? Probably not.


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Re: Searching by bolting type
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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:37 am
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lorraine wrote:
Karpeth wrote:
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
Several weaves are "bolted", while currently not accepted when submitted with single ring bolting, Harvest Moon style bolting has been more "OK".

Yes it has been discussed before. Bolting with one ring, or multiple rings is not the point. Bolting is the point. There are weaves in the library that would not currently be accepted. But at least one or two weaves that exhibit bolting (or kinging, or mobiusing, or berusing, or a progression) must be in the library for people get the idea of that particular ring interaction.
Well, Currently, it's a mash. I'd hope we somewhen in the future get a library where we cook everything down to the essensials.

Why? Why add to the madness? When we delete something, we have to give an explanation. "I remember this weave, it was like this (user inserts a picture). Why is it gone?" Then we have to point them to where it went, or explain. "It was a bolted/kinged/scaled/berused/mobiused/shaggied/spiked weave. We cooked everything down to the essentials, and this is what you get." And what you get is still a library full of bloat...

Then we could do a transition; the "old library" and the "new library" coexistant for a while, some year or so.

We did bad once, and we'll suffer for it. I believe it's better with a clean library.
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
I am not asking for additional weaves, I am asking for a search function? The only part I could say is "being an ass" is saying "not trying to be an ass", as that implies some sort of intent.

What? I specifically said, "Not trying to be an ass". You are assuming an intent that is not there... that I specifically said wasn't there.

This argument wouldn't even have begun if you hadn't put the reservation there.
lorraine wrote:

The search function is there. On the weave page. If anyone has done anything with that weave, like bolted it, the picture will be there. If you don't see one, then submit one. Or write an article. That's why you are able to make submissions to the library. Fill the holes you see instead of insisting that someone else do it. DL already wrote the code so others can fill in the holes.
I
know The search function. I just want a QOL upgrade. So We can search extant weaves by bolting. I know the "single ring" search function should be at least 12 on Top of My head.
lorraine wrote:

Karpeth wrote:
The reason weave bloat happens is because there is not enough cleanup. When someone "discovers" a nonbolted version, such as the byz topic recently, the bolted version should be removed.

There is no way to win here. We either get blasted for deleting something, or we are criticized for keeping things in the library as we found them when we got here. You have one opinion. Others have another.

I happen to agree with you. I think there are obvious things that should be deleted from the library. Will it happen because you and I think is should? Probably not.

And we need to serie down on One side. Currently there is an ambition to better the library by restricting new submission. Regressions/progressions and Much more are Being restricted.

But what about existing library?
There is not Much difference between E12-1 and E10-1. If new submissions are limited to three progressions/regressions, why should the library not be uniform?


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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:14 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
I'm also a stickler for definitions (and specifically how to distinguish one from another). A good format would be to do something similar to this thread.

The weaves home page MUST have a link to this thread.

--------------------------

Karpeth wrote:
Is it just me, or wouldn't it be nice to search by bolting type?

Can you give a precise definition of "bolting"?
Looking at Harvest Moon, Byzantine and Moon 4 in 2 Captive I'm a bit lost. Confused

--------------------------

About the existing library:
Same questions again and again, same answers again and again.
Nothing will move until someone makes a precise proposition ("this, this and this weaves must be removed because of this reason") and a members-wide vote is made.
I think everyone agrees there are some stuff in the library that should not be there, even if not agreeing on what and why. Maybe it's time to have a formal vote to know what the userS as a whole are expecting, and not only hear the few vocal users.

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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 2:15 pm
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[quote:6797925f21="Shirluban"][quote:6797925f21="TrenchCoatGuy"]I'm also a stickler for definitions (and specifically how to distinguish one from another). A good format would be to do something similar to this thread.

The weaves home page MUST have a link to this thread.

--------------------------

[quote:6797925f21="Karpeth"]Is it just me, or wouldn't it be nice to search by bolting type?

Can you give a precise definition of "bolting"?
Looking at Harvest Moon, Byzantine and Moon 4 in 2 Captive I'm a bit lost. Confused

--------------------------


Well, it's something we throw around, a definitions would be something like "stable or pseudostable units or cells connected to eachother by a single ring or a substitution thereof."

This would suit as a definition of Bolted weaves, Where the bolt is the single ring/substitution.

Byzantine, Box Chain 4 in 1, Pacman.

These share a single cell, which is only Stable when connected to something. Byzantine adds a single ring to connect the units. Pacman uses the "moon" bolt.

Definitly Bolted
Barrel Twists
[weave=Bee Sting] - Bolted HP3-1
Byzantine, Pacman - Bolted [Weave=Box Chain]
Byzantine Halo

Possibly bolted.
[weave=4 winds]
Aura
Barbed Helm

This is just the beginning.
[quote:6797925f21="Shirluban"]

About the existing library:
Same questions again and again, same answers again and again.
Nothing will move until someone makes a precise proposition ("this, this and this weaves must be removed because of this reason") and a members-wide vote is made.
I think everyone agrees there are some stuff in the library that should not be there, even if not agreeing on what and why. Maybe it's time to have a formal vote to know what the userS as a whole are expecting, and not only hear the few vocal users.

+1


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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 5:22 pm
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I've been meaning to say this. Byzantine is not a bolted weave. Without the one or two (or however many rings you decide to use) between the iterations (parts of the weave that are repeated), those rings have to be there or the iterations simply fall apart. In other words, the rings you are calling bolting rings are actually part of the iteration, making it a true chain.

Box Chain 4 in 1 is not bolted. It is an example of rounding a weave, or curling it up and seaming it down the side. In this case you are rounding (well, actually squaring) European 4 in 1. Roundmaille and its endless progressions are the same thing.

Pacman, Barrel, Barrel Twists, Bee Stings, Barbed Helm are not bolted. The connections between the iterations of the weave are simple, yes. But those rings are structural. If those rings are taken out, the weave goes poof.

Aura is bolted as long as each unit can stand on its own. (I have no idea. I'm never made it), or until you begin sheeting it like in the bottom picture of the weave.

A bolted weave is one where the rings holding the iterations together are not structural. If you take them out, you are left with some units or pieces of a design that are stable.

As for this:
[quote:5a20438d96="lorraine"]
[quote:5a20438d96="Karpeth"]I am not asking for additional weaves, I am asking for a search function? The only part I could say is "being an ass" is saying "not trying to be an ass", as that implies some sort of intent.

What? I specifically said, "Not trying to be an ass". You are assuming an intent that is not there... that I specifically said wasn't there.

[quote:5a20438d96="Karpeth"]This argument wouldn't even have begun if you hadn't put the reservation there.
I did not "imply" anything. You inferred something that wasn't there. I don't even understand what you mean by "putting the reservation there". I'm not arguing with you. In fact, I don't even know what's going on here. I did not write anything that was intended to insult or offend you. It isn't there. Really, it isn't. So, could we please just put this non-argument to bed?


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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 7:26 pm
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Shirluban wrote:
TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
I'm also a stickler for definitions (and specifically how to distinguish one from another). A good format would be to do something similar to this thread.

The weaves home page MUST have a link to this thread.

Forum stickied just isn't enough.

Shirluban wrote:
I think everyone agrees there are some stuff in the library that should not be there, even if not agreeing on what and why.

I'd agree with the caveat that some believe the library needs more sorting (even though the sorting is already rather bloated) rather than being curated, which is why I've suggested multiple times for others to make a larger list.


while(!project.isFinished())
project.addRing();
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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 9:43 pm
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TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Shirluban wrote:
TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
I'm also a stickler for definitions (and specifically how to distinguish one from another). A good format would be to do something similar to this thread.

The weaves home page MUST have a link to this thread.

Forum stickied just isn't enough.


I discourage linking to Forum threads around the site.
If the membership want a Site Page explaining terms, request one Smile

TrenchCoatGuy wrote:
Shirluban wrote:
I think everyone agrees there are some stuff in the library that should not be there, even if not agreeing on what and why.

I'd agree with the caveat that some believe the library needs more sorting (even though the sorting is already rather bloated) rather than being curated, which is why I've suggested multiple times for others to make a larger list.


Sorting is a touchy subject, while everyone can agree it needs sorting. Nobody can agree HOW it should be sorted... What makes sense to one person, does not make sense to another.



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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 10:07 pm
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[quote:527c0b5aee="Karpeth"]"stable or pseudostable units or cells connected to eachother by a single ring or a substitution thereof."
[...]
These share a single cell, which is only Stable when connected to something.

Doesn't it rule out those weaves from the bolted category?
If the "connectors" are required to make the unit stable, then they are not connectors but fundamental parts of the unit. Then the weave is made of inter-woven units, not of units connected by singletons.

Only Byzantine Halo and Aura match your definition.

I have no idea what Box Chain 4 in 1 have to do here, it's only cells connected to each other by exact same cells.
Pacman: Is the Box Chain cell the unit and the crossed rings the substitution of a single ring, or is the crossed rings the unit and the Box Chain cell the "single ring"? Or is the combination of a Box Chain cell and crossed rings the unit, and there is no connector?

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Posted on Fri Sep 18, 2015 11:09 pm
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Just a Quick thing. I never Claimed Box is Bolted.


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Posted on Fri Sep 25, 2015 7:59 pm
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lorraine wrote:

A bolted weave is one where the rings holding the iterations together are not structural. If you take them out, you are left with some units or pieces of a design that are stable.


This is about how I would define bolting. But if you still want to insist on Byzantine being a bolted weave, then I must insist on pretty much all Japanese weaves being removed for bolting, as well.

There are at least a few sheet weaves that are just units bolted together. There's even a couple in the first 50 sheets that I would call chains bolted together. In my opinion, that does need to be as much a defined modification as kinged, and should not be in the weaves database. I have my opinions on how Byzantine should be tagged, but it's not bolted.


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