Weave Variant question
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Separate submissions for variant weaves?
Yes
55%
 55%  [ 10 ]
No
22%
 22%  [ 4 ]
Leave it to the Admins to decide
22%
 22%  [ 4 ]
Total Votes : 18

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Joined: July 11, 2010
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:33 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
i don't think it will cause clutter if we give the option to include variants (children of parents) and modifications (slight changes on variants)..

this way people could browse the root weaves and the parents, there are relatively few of these.. 30-40 iirc.. no more than 60.. and add in either variants or mods and variants if the user chooses..

kim


This is what I was talking about..... I just couldnt figure out how to get that out through what I was saying. Thanks Kim Smile


we all walk to the same end, no matter what path we follow

Joined: July 11, 2010
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:37 pm
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Daemon_Lotos wrote:
...

Am I making sense?


Yes you are and thats kinda the thought i had but Zili and Chao wrapped up what i was meaning in their posts.


we all walk to the same end, no matter what path we follow

Joined: March 27, 2009
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 6:51 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
variants, by definition have more than one parent.

Really? Why is that? I thought the definition of variant was that it was a weave with a slight alteration to it. I don't remember anything in the definition that required it to be a combination of two or more weaves. I thought that was more the definition for hybrid (well, two or more families, but still). If E4-1 is the base weave and E6-1 is the variant, then who is the other parent?

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 7:34 pm
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http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14973
this is the vote thread...

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15043
discussion thread...

these two threads will give you a lot of information on this subject.

e6 may be listed as a parent.. at one point i had all of this fresh in my head. these two links, and the one i put up earlier have a lot of info, including a link to my suggested classification system..

if you are really interested in this topic these are the things to read.
it is not fresh in my head, but if you research and still want to discuss it, i'll go back and study up to talk it over.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: December 22, 2007
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:02 pm
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sakredchao wrote:
http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=14973
this is the vote thread...

http://www.mailleartisans.org/board/viewtopic.php?t=15043
discussion thread...

these two threads will give you a lot of information on this subject.

e6 may be listed as a parent.. at one point i had all of this fresh in my head. these two links, and the one i put up earlier have a lot of info, including a link to my suggested classification system..

if you are really interested in this topic these are the things to read.
it is not fresh in my head, but if you research and still want to discuss it, i'll go back and study up to talk it over.

Not trying to start any arguments chao, I swear to you. But I just don't see any definition of variant that says it always has more than one parent weave. Hybrids, by definition have more than one parent weave... is that maybe what you mean?


"I am a leaf on the wind." ~ Wash
Lorraine's Chains
Gallery Submission Guidelines

Joined: March 27, 2009
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 8:22 pm
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From the Weaves Submission Policy:
Quote:
7. A submitted weave that differs from any precursor weaves by the addition or alteration of a structural element that directly affects the shape or behaviour of the weave will be classified as a weave variant.

There is nothing here to say that a variant always has two parent weaves. I also read both the vote and discussion threads that chao linked. There is nothing in either of them that says a weave variant has two parents.

I have not yet read through the first link chao gave because it is eight pages long and I have stuff to do today. So if the answer is in there, I'd appreciate anyone who could point it out to me. Otherwise, I will try to read it sometime later when I have more time.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 9:06 pm
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Well, if one weave is clearly the base weave, and this is just varied by applying a modification technique, it results in a weave variant with one parent. Not always this variation consists of basically two or more interwoven weaves, as one weave's features prevail. In case of two (or more) base weaves being combined in a manner that both could claim to be the base weave, usually a combo weave is born. Nobody said, that was always easy to decide...

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:33 pm
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i'm open. explain to me how you add or alter a structural element in a weave without adding a different interaction that can not be distilled into a simpler form.

the example of e4-e6 is a good one. simple weaves most everyone knows.

e4 is a union of 2 root interactions. one of them is the "eye" strip of 2-1, listed as european in the image tesserex compiled for us.

the other is the opposite grain of e4. the dominant grain in "windmill" and "persian box" (not the best weave name).

now, e6 is a variant of e4. we have not distilled that interaction. there is a gap in our knowledge here, but i am confident that it can be found. what is the essence of the step from e4 to e6? find that. lather, rinse, repeat.

every weave, including parents, or children, or whatever we are calling anything more complicated than a root have at least 2 things they derive from.

the only things that do not have multiple sources are roots.

again, i'm open to seeing a different comprehensive system..


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: August 30, 2008
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 10:52 pm
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I think the problem, chao, is that the vast majority of variants, or modifications, simply include added rings in a Japanese style... That is, end on, through the eye.

Nobody wants to suddenly include Japanese as a tag in 75% of our existing weaves... That would essentially nullify its purpose, or any sense of its meaning.



Joined: May 07, 2008
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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:05 pm
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You should not go down too deep in the reduction of weaves - somewhen you land down at a simple 1-1 interaction of two rings for EVERY thinkable weave - even for the 'roots' - and what's that oversimplification worth, except for impractical theory?

In practice many weave variants have a predominant base weave that should not be resolved down further, and that is altered by application of a modification technique, often by adding single rings or small ring groups to that, resulting in a new 'variant' weave - in some cases even these are basic enough to be counted as basis weave for many further modification subfamilies. Only in relatively seldom cases, when combining two or more 'standalone stable' weaves, there may be no predominant weave and more than one mother weave can be counted as basis - then we have real combos. A classic example for this is 'Persian Dragonscale', where even different construction methods are published - one with E4-1 as basis for starting, another one with HP3-1 for beginning.

Mailleing is mainly practice, and only a bit theory - for most maillers. So a site useable for most maillers should imho orient at that. So, how do we resolve this?

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Wed Aug 18, 2010 11:36 pm
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there are 5 or 6 "simple chain" (2-1) roots. the parents or children or whatever we call the first tier of weaves, e4, j4, s4, hp3 should all reference these separate roots. the single entry, as it stands, is pretty useless. but, as unique entries the root references have value.

as for variants and modifications, that is why we offer exclusionary searches, if you don't want to get all variants and modifications with a j2 addition, don't search for j2[root] +variants +mods.

it is a valid interaction. if you want fewer results, don't include mods. if you want even fewer, don't include variants.

now, i'm not saying we post a complete reduction of every weave. if a weave entry is a combination of e4 and hp3, reference e4 and hp3.. if it is a combination of e4 and hp2(the hp root) reference e4 and the hp root. there is no need to list that e4 is a combination of those 2 root interactions i mentioned earlier anywhere except for the e4 entry.

more complicated weaves, e10 for example.. should reference e4 and e6(or whatever the distillation of the e6 evolution is determined to be) as the sources, not e8.

this is the difference between a parent/child and a variant/modification.

and, lotos, if we have a TE interaction we need to look at the possibility of it being euro, not japanese.... but, i see what you're saying.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

Joined: May 07, 2008
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Location: Germany, Herxheim

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Posted on Thu Aug 19, 2010 9:31 am
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Sorry, but I'd like to indicate the practical aspect. The average mailler is simply not interested in too much theory, but sees weaves and techniques - just so much theory as necessary, not more. Humans are 'visual oriented' animals. It's fine to have some people around that immerse deeper into the matter, and are able to analyze weaves, see the interactions, and 'distill' them down to their roots, but these see the interactions most times anyway, without the need to look up in the weave database.

As this site is made for the whole maille interested community, and especially to help less experienced ones to gain experience, the practical aspect should be in the foreground - so imho the structure should mirror that community's primary needs. That the more theoretical aspects should be provided for the interested ones, who want to get knowledge and not only experience, is clear - but the right place for this is imho the article database, and not the weave library. More 'prominent' (=basic) members of weave families may have tag crosslinks to these articles.

And so the weavebase structure's 'root' should mirror the particular family connections, but more theoretical in-depth information attached to every weave entry seems to be pointless for me.

-ZiLi-


Maille Code V2.0 T7.1 R5.6 Ep Fper MAl Ws$ Cpbsw$ G0.3-6.4 I1.0-30.0 N28.25 Ps Dacdejst Xagtw S08 Hip

Human societies are like chain mail.
A single link will be worth nothing.
A chain is of use, but will break at the weakest link.
A weak weave will have the need to replace weak links.
A strong weave will survive even with weak links included.
-'me

Joined: March 3, 2002
Posts: 4378
Submissions: 79
Location: tres piedras, new mexico

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Posted on Thu Aug 19, 2010 3:14 pm
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just like accurate taxonomy seemed pointless to the people first studying plants. "these two plants look similar, they must be the same"

luckily this is not a paper-book. we can organize by family (ring interaction) as well as by aesthetic ("color" in the plant world.)

"color" plant identification books are very useful to people who don't know what they are looking at, which is most of the people looking at plant books. but, once you learn some family identification, family oriented books are much more useful.


PSA: remember to stretch.
3.o is fixing everything.

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