Please Help! Saw cutting rings diagonally
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How rediculous is this idea?
Extremely
46%
 46%  [ 14 ]
Moderately
16%
 16%  [ 5 ]
Not at all
16%
 16%  [ 5 ]
You want to do what now?
20%
 20%  [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 30

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Joined: June 14, 2009
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Posted on Thu Sep 03, 2009 10:28 pm
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lorraine wrote:
festerduley wrote:

For all of those who haven't figured it out yet... Make sense now?

What you don't seem to be able to figure out is that we get what you are trying to do, but we don't get why. You chose to title this thread "Please Help!... and to start a silly poll asking "How ridiculous is this idea?" You don't seem to like the poll results or the replies you are getting. So your increasingly condescending and antagonistic responses to this "plea for help" make me think you are less than sincere in your request.


It seems to me that Festerduley is just trying to work out the kinks to something new for the chainmaille community, and simply trying to get input, which is why he brought his idea to this forum. Coif Smiley I don't believe he was trying to be condescending or antagonistic.

This forum is in part meant to bring maillers together to share ideas, learn, and evolve. All Festerduley did was bring his idea forward to get input in the very early stages of the design process, which in a lot of ways is a lot more humble of a thing to do, rather than to wait until we've mostly completely fleshed out the new invention, enough so that we can put our stamp on it and get our name credited for the idea.

With this, not everybody understood what he was talking about, or why he would want to do it. That's fine, everybody's different, with different preferences. If somebody came in asking for a mathematical equation to help them figure out what ARs to use with what weaves for their square wire rings, I would hope the response wouldn't be, 'round wire rings are perfectly fine, why bother with anything else?' but instead, I would hope that whoever took an interest in the subject would respond with relative feedback.

So basically, if we as MAIL members need to write 5-page essays explaining in great detail our new idea before we even think about posting it to the forums, that would be quite the sad day. Sad



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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2009 1:20 am
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Bilirubin wrote:
What I don't understand is why one would want to cut *more* metal than is absolutely necessary. The perpendicular cut minimizes the amount necessary to saw through. I for one like efficiency of energy expended to get my rings.


By cutting at an angle it is possible to create a ring that has an effective kerf of 0 (there is a kerf, but because the coil is cut at an angle it compensates for this.

As i see it there are some pro's and con's to this compared to cutting in line with the center of the coil ... if anyone sees some I've missed please list them.

Pro: effective 0 kerf - therefore theoretically a more circular ring shape.
Pro: err um that is actually all i can think of.

Con: because the cut is at an angle more metal is wasted, so fewer rings.
Con: rings are going to be cut one at a time, so more time spent cutting rings
Con: cut is at an angle making getting good closures more difficult and poor closures more likely to catch on things.

For me personally the difference in ring shape is not enough of a benefit to overcome the loss of time required in creating and weaving with angle cut rings, i think the time can be better spent on other aspects of weaving. However festerduley seems to think the benefit is worth the extra effort.

I don't think there is an overall right or wrong answer, but i do suspect that most people would prefer the standard saw cut rings that are quicker to make, and easier to weave than more perfect angle cut rings, to my eyes there is not enough difference to justify the extra effort.

Perhaps a poll asking which type of ring people would prefer to use would be more useful.


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Posted on Fri Sep 04, 2009 6:17 pm
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festerduley wrote:
that is a great diagram! And i like the idea of the chain saw sharpener - I'll have to look into that. so this is what i'm looking to do:

For all of those who haven't figured it out yet... Make sense now? Sorry about the poor quality - in a hurry using mini bolt cutters on 9 gauge wrapped around 1 inch pipe. But that's the general idea.


Fester, that is exactly what I was describing in my earlier post. All you have to do is just slightly tilt the saw as you cut and it will cut like that.


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Posted on Sun Sep 06, 2009 9:42 pm
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festerduley wrote:
The feed stop for index advancing is an awesome idea that can easily adjust to different gauges, but I'm not too sure it's possible to institute that stop cam WITH the saw unless someone knows how to set it up with a 2 part lift and then catch system like in ratcheting tools and click pens.


I was thinking something way simpler. Slide the saw toward the coil to make the cut, then back. The cam has a finger that rides on the saw body somehow so it lifts up and out of the way as the saw slides towards the coil. With that, repeated cutting is easy -- slide the coil foward and rotate it against the stop, slide the saw forward and back to cut, then repeat.

I tend to think smaller gauge wire (<= 16 AWG) and ARs down toward the small end of the spectrum. The chainsaw sharpener (compound chop saw) is a better idea for larger gauge rings like for armour.

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Posted on Mon Sep 07, 2009 6:38 am
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Yeah... that is simpler. Sorry, what I was talking about would be much more complicated and difficult to make, BUT it would speed up the process because you would not have to leave the saw, adjust the coil, and cut again. Although, I honestly am not that concerned about speed. Otherwise I'd be using a traditional saw cut system Razz Good point, though. I'd probably need to try and keep the machine as simple as possible so that the machining costs will remain as low as possible...

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Posted on Mon Sep 07, 2009 11:37 am
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Not to be a buzz kill, but the slant on a theoretical 16 guage wire from being wrapped (even assuming they are perfectly even wraps) on a quarter inch rod will already exceed one percent. So to start with you arent even cutting a round ring. I understand your goal, but at this point, it seem semantics. It seems to beg the question, assuming you had the "perfect" ring would you want it be because you can look and tell it is a perfect ring on sight, or are you in pursuit of the knowledge that you have a perfect ring? Because you can certainly make a ring that apears perfectly round, even under magnification, but you wont have the intillectual knowledge that it is round.

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Posted on Mon Sep 07, 2009 1:26 pm
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That is a very valid point. Fortunately, though, I am not looking for a perfeclty round ring. In fact, as it was pointed out earlier, by removing the effect of the kerf on the rings I run the risk of making a ring that is wider than "round." Which brings me to the reason I am going through this much headache and criticism: to eliminate the need to press the ends of the ring toward each other when I close them, and to have a ring that looks and feels a little different. Yup.

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Posted on Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:28 pm
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festerduley wrote:
Which brings me to the reason I am going through this much headache and criticism: to eliminate the need to press the ends of the ring toward each other when I close them, and to have a ring that looks and feels a little different. Yup.



I'm all in support of experimentation. Just wondering why eliminating the need to press the butt ends together in exchange for a more difficult option(in my opinion) seems appealing. Perhaps you have a method of butting up the angled cuts more easily that I am not aware of. I understand the visual the angled cut could make when butted perfectly, but am not sure how I would butt them without having to pull the ring wider then its original ID to counter spring back, and then you run afoul of the deformation that can happen(pacman effect) that can leave stress, and bends in the opposite side of the ring from the cut.

Cutting an angle will still require a small amount of pressing the ends together to eliminate the kerf because the cute will not lay flush if only bent on one axis. You will also have to have perfect butts to prevent the now blade like point on the ring from snagging clothing. Straight cuts can be scratchy if not closed nicely, but are less likely to tear a hole in nylons unless they a burred, or have a fair gap in the closure(or the rings are very fine). A angled cut would have a very sharp end that will have a hooking action if the ring has any gap at all in the closure.


Not trying to discourage. Just curious if you have thought about these things, and perhaps have solutions in mind.



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Posted on Mon Sep 07, 2009 9:21 pm
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Packman effect! Derailed you just made my day!

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Posted on Sat Sep 12, 2009 1:36 am
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Sorry about the delayed response, Derailed, I was exhausted when I first read your post, didn't understand it, and had to come back later with less sleep but a clearer head Wink So, the reason I like angled cuts is because all you have to do to close them is twist. No pressing together and twisting the ends and no pulling open (like you were asking about), simply a twist. That's the point - to me - of the angled ends. Since they line up with each other they will touch a little before a flush closure, and then the two "ramps" push against each other as you continue to close. Thus, you have an easy to close ring that has natural tension holding it closed. Yes you have to be careful and make sure that the ring is flush with no edges poking out. That takes less than half a second to check by swiping the thumb and a finger from you off-hand in opposite directions over the cut and about as much time to fix. Hope that answers your concerns... And if you have any idea how we can make the stop cam that lifts out of the way as the saw advances - mailbob was talking about it - LET US KNOW! That would help tremendously. His diagram is really getting me closer to being able to make a rig for cutting safely, but that stop cam is one of the details that I really like and haven't figured out yet Coif LoL Thanks a lot for the help so far everybody!

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Posted on Wed Sep 16, 2009 1:26 am
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Sounds a little too difficult but I sure it can be done although not very quickly.

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