Last Minute ALPHA Project Discussion
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Last Minute ALPHA Project Discussion
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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:38 am || Last edited by Cynake on Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:19 am; edited 1 time in total
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So for anyone that doesn't know, there is a MAIL contest running (see details in the stickied Gallery forum) for the Alpha (quilt) project.

I figure, since we've only ever had 2 patches submitted, and there's a contest going on right now where we will (hopefully) get a bunch more, the ball is officially rolling and any last-minute issues should get talked about ASAP before things get set in stone.

Only one issue comes to mind to me right now, the border. I started this talk in the contest thread, moved it here.

Each patch is 8 inches x 8 inches.
Each border, as described, comes out to about 3/4 of an inch around the whole thing.

Total square inchage of a given patch: 64
Total square inchage of each border's patch: 21.75

That means the border takes up 1/3 of the real estate for every patch, leaving only 2/3 for anything interesting inside.

The borders to me, look about right for separation between patches (3/4", 3 rings). However, that is the border for *each patch*. So the actual borders will be double that, plus an extra row to stitch them together.

That makes 7 rows (over an an inch and a half) between the actual patches. (This is at 16g, 1/4" ID).

I think that's too fat myself. The border is the uninteresting functional portion of the quilt, and we should minimize it if possible.

I would like to see 3 rings, total.

That would mean you make your patch to the right size, trim it with a single row of 16G 1/4" rings. Your neighbors will do the same, and they will be connect together with a third ring.

I think it makes a big deal.

Big borders:



[Edited to add: For the hell of it, Medium Borders]



Small borders:



...

Since we've only actually had 1 or 2 patches submitted.. there's no loss associated with making the change.

All you have to do is pick which you like better. Thick (7-ring) borders, or thin (3-ring) borders (and whatever that corresponds to on the top and bottom).

If anyone sees any problems with making the change, please point those out to.

Otherwise, just peep up which you prefer, ASAP, so those in charge can decide what to go with.

...

Also feel free to bring up any other issues or changes with the Alpha that you may have.

Joined: August 23, 2004
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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 6:47 am
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*from my post in the Gallery discussion thread*

I'm assuming you've never quilted; typically you do have a rather thick border when you are assembling a patched quilt, otherwise you end up with a mis-mash of designs that sort of melt together, making it visualy over-stimulating. While connecting multiple blocks together in a quilt you make a single work of art, each block is a work of art unto itself and needs to be separated by a thickish border to properly show it off.

Seriously, it's great the way it is. A lot of thought went into it, there is no reason to change it, changing it to smaller borders won't make it better, it will not only make it difficult for the assembler to weave all the patches together, but will make it so jumbled that (imo) smaller borders will take away from the beauty and intricacy of each artists piece in the quilt. In short, you won't be able to pick one piece out from another without really getting in there to look, and I don't think that's what we're going for here.

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:27 am
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Edited the first post to include Medium (5 ring total, 2 ring perimeter) thick borders.

And from my followup from the other thread:

---

I agree, you can definitely make a quilt too busy, and too cluttered. It also depends on the distance the quilt is being viewed at, and how big the patches are. Our patches are pretty tiny for how huge the quilt is. So, people are going to have to get right up to it to see *anything*. I don't think you're going to be able to stand back and look at the quilt and notice anything, at a distance where you'll need a border to break the visual. The interior of the patches is only 6.5" x 6.5".

It can go the other way too. You can break things up too much as well. For the size of our patches, I think we might be there.

Borders probably follow some rule of being a certain size compared to the size of the patch. The bigger the distinct patch, the bigger the border should be to divide it from its neighbors. I think using up 1/3 of the surface area just for borders is a tad large, and we could scale it back, include a lot more detail in the patches themselves.

I dunno, maybe 3 rings is too narrow. Maybe the sweet spot is the 5?

Joined: April 15, 2002
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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:38 am
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Deirdre wrote:
Seriously, it's great the way it is. A lot of thought went into it, there is no reason to change it, changing it to smaller borders won't make it better


Hrm. I wasn't around for the discussion, but I would guess that as much thought as went into how big the border should be, is that a 3-row border is as thin as you can make a border without the weave degrading into a 1-1 chain when you pull it. I would suppose the border was shown the way it was because it allows you to make the border first, (which won't fall apart at 3-row width) and fill it in second, not requiring you to plan as much.

And, well, there are reasons to change it. I mentioned some. There are other reasons to weigh against it, too, which I don't discount just because I reached a different conclusion.

Joined: November 03, 2005
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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 1:36 pm
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My post from the discussion, before I realized it was moving here too:


I think I agree with dierdre on the issue here. Partly because if the border of each patch is made at 2 rows instead of 3 it'll be a bit harder for the borders to maintain their shape. People could end up with more distorted a patch than would easily be fixable to put into the quilt. I understand that it will go from 3 to 7 when the patches are near each other. 5 sounds like a good number between patches for a final product, but working the rings before the 5 show up I think may cause more problems.

Also, just a little bit of outside info: In heraldry, divisions of the field tend to encompass about 1/3 of the field. This is in part to help make them clearly distinguishable, so the 1/3 may not be such a bad idea.

Perhaps the best idea is not to reduce the number of rings between quilt patches, but to increase the number of rings making up the dimensions of the patch.

Another thing: the alpha project page mentions being able to make patches that use up 2 or more patch spaces, which could cause problems if the person making the patch doesn't include the extra row of joining rings that would be present if the long patch was split into 2 small patches. This also will help to lessen the 'border' problem if some patches are not the square, but take up multiple patch spaces. I'm not sure how this is going to be dealt with as no one seems to have pointed it out at all, except on the alpha project page.

Joined: November 05, 2006
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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 7:33 pm
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I have never seen any two quilts (made by people) look the same. Each maker (indeed everyone) has his or her own preferences and techniques for the layout, borders, etc. I think any discussion about personal preference should be limited to "I like it this way because ."

Two patches have already been submitted. That fact should not be taken lightly when you want to change a design aspect. Those makers and others put in a lot of effort well prior to this contest to start an ambitious project. In my opinion, changing the design of the quilt greatly diminishes their efforts in getting this project started and asking them to change their patches to suit somebody's visual preferences is an extremely arrogant thing to ask.

Perhaps those who made the patches would be more than happy to adapt them to a new border, but I know that I would not be too happy if I were put in their shoes.

And another reason to keep the 7-wide border is that the border could be used to carry more of the weight of the quilt which would allow more flexibility with what and how the patches are made. Also, it would allow the fragile and hefty patches to be placed anywhere on the quilt and not just the hefty ones at the top and the flimsy ones on the bottom.

Another alternative for border size would be to have all patches submitted with the current requirements. Then, when assembling the patches, 1 (or 2) rings could be taken off depending on the final decision. This would help keep pieces closer to the appropriate size.

I would be more inclined to keep the current border size and patch size if only because patches have already been submitted.

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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:03 pm
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I don't personally like the idea of changing the borders to 2 or 1 row wide. I suppose if it were agreed upon, it could be made up to the maker of the patch.

The patches aren't all going to go together smoothly anyways. We need to understand that if one person makes their border out of stainless steel (which was used in the border example), it will be a full 8 inches x 8 inches, but if they use something with less springback like galvanized steel, copper, etc., it would end up being smaller, like maybe 7.5 x 7.5. Of course, since sakredchao will likely be the one, or at least one of a few people connecting the pieces together, we're covered in that aspect, as he will have no problem adjusting the pieces to fit together by adding extra rows or what have you.

If we were to change the border thickness, most people would still have to make their border three rows wide (adding extra rows to the initial design). This would be just for the construction of it, so that it doesn't collapse every time they pick it up; afterwards taking the one or two rows out, which seems like a hassle. This is if the maker uses the making the border first, then filling it in method, as I see most individuals doing.

I think part of the reason I think it shouldn't be changed also includes the fact that it's been decided that this is how it would be done since around 2001 when the project was introduced. We have two submitted patches under the current design, and for all we know there may be others who have made a patch and not submitted it yet. It wouldn't be fair to ask the makers of those patches to change their designs.

Just my 2 cents anyways. Coif Cool Smiley


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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 8:06 pm
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My opinion too is that we should keep the border as it is. It helps to standardize the process, and it makes it so you don't have to keep measuring what you have row by row to be sure that it's the right size.

Besides that, I'm sure some of us (me at least) won't be strictly using euro weaves. In fact I plan on using somewhere in the neighborhood of 8 different weaves from different weave families, several wire types and gauges, and several IDs. The border helps to make sure that what I have will fit and be square.

I'm sure we could just make our patches with the current border, and then remove a row or two from the border once the patch is finished, which is all well and good, but I just don't wanna. Very Happy I don't feel as though it's necessary.

I think perhaps another thought, although it may not be terribly relevant, is that the quilt won't actually be used as a quilt. It's an art project. If the borders are too thin, it could turn into a big mish mash. Each patch has the potential to be its own mish mash, but big borders will help to separate them and make the quilt as a whole less overwhelming at first look.

At any rate, and for what it's worth, that's my opinion.

~Mical~ Coif Smiley

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Posted on Sun Jul 15, 2007 11:15 pm
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Wahnsinnig wrote:
Two patches have already been submitted. That fact should not be taken lightly when you want to change a design aspect. Those makers and others put in a lot of effort well prior to this contest to start an ambitious project. In my opinion, changing the design of the quilt greatly diminishes their efforts in getting this project started and asking them to change their patches to suit somebody's visual preferences is an extremely arrogant thing to ask.


Hrm. I disagree. It's 1 or 2 people out of 144 patches. Not only is it small percentage wise, it's literally only a single person or two. I don't think changing the border size greatly diminishes any of their efforts. To me it's almost trivial. The interior of their patches (and it's 1 or 2 people!) will just start one ring further inside. They wouldn't have to change their patches, they would be included as-is, as they're still the right size... and.. you're phrasing this a little strongly I think. "To suit someone's visual preferences is an extremely arrogant thing to ask"? You make it sound so sinister.

They're part of a project they want to look good. If you want to think of it that way, they just made it to suit someone's visual preferences in the beginning. If I had a patch in there, on a scale of 1-10 for how upset I'd be, making this change, knowing I was the only one in 6 years who's submitted a patch, this would be a 1. I wouldn't care in the slightest, and, if it made a better quilt, I'd actually want it to happen, and not mind that my patch has an extra row before the interior starts. That's just me though.

Quote:
And another reason to keep the 7-wide border is that the border could be used to carry more of the weight of the quilt which would allow more flexibility with what and how the patches are made. Also, it would allow the fragile and hefty patches to be placed anywhere on the quilt and not just the hefty ones at the top and the flimsy ones on the bottom.


I was thinking about this yesterday when I was crunching the weights, before I thought about the border width. I don't think a thicker border helps this at all. Maybe very minimally at best. Weight is still being pulled from the center. Each part of the width of the weave has to support weight, putting more trim around it won't help. It's not a picture frame, it's not solid.

--
Quote:
We have two submitted patches under the current design, and for all we know there may be others who have made a patch and not submitted it yet. It wouldn't be fair to ask the makers of those patches to change their designs.


Hrm. I hadn't thought of that, that's true. We may be a lot further along than is immediately obvious. The 6 year limit works both ways. On one hand, a lot of people may have started, on the other, after 6 years, you'd think you'd hear *something* from people if anyone had. I'm not sure which of those is prevalent.

Again though, no one would have to or be forced to change their designs. All it would be is that they "chose" for the first interior row of their patch to be plain just like the border. So, it would be that they just didn't have an opportunity to take advantage of the extra design real estate available.

--
Quote:
I'm sure we could just make our patches with the current border, and then remove a row or two from the border once the patch is finished, which is all well and good, but I just don't wanna.


Nope. Can't do that. That would change the size of the exterior of the patch. What you'd have to do, if filling in the box, is put an extra row around the *outside*, which you'd have to trim off later.

Which is like, a hundred rings maybe, if you want to do it that way.

....

None of these things are new thoughts to me except how many unsubmitted patches we have floating around, I just don't weigh any of the concerns anywhere near as heavily as the rest of you, and I suppose weigh the amount of detail in a patch more heavily than the rest of you. No matter then. Good to hear everyone who's weighed the changes are all in the same boat and unconcerned about the spacing as-is.

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Posted on Mon Jul 16, 2007 5:54 pm
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i am in favor of keeping the border how it is.

kim


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3.o is fixing everything.

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Posted on Sun Jul 29, 2007 3:40 am
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I think we should leave the border as it is. I've only recently joined the group but I was planning on making some kind of patch. I like the idea that what I did will be joined with others. It's unique and it's a project that deserves to be made. Don't diminish what others have done just because more people haven't submitted their designs yet.

~Venna~


Beware of the Raven for it is She who heralds Change.

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